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Kanban: Automotive Revolution» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Does my opponent's move make sense? rss

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Bryan Thunkd
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So this just happened in a game and I'm curious what people think about it.

3 Player Game

1st Week
2nd Meeting (We're currently scoring goals for this meeting)

Me: 25 points 2 seats left
Yellow Player: 19 points, 3 seats left
Orange Player: 39 points, 3 seats left

Public Goals I can still Score:
Certification is X department (Only I am certified in this department)
Have red cars (I have two and no one else has any)

The scoring order is Me, Yellow, Orange. It's Yellow's turn to score a goal and he can't score any points from any public goal. So he scores the "Have red cars" goal... which means I can only score it for 4 points now, instead of 8.

This doesn't make sense does it? Seats are worth at least a point at game end, but more likely they're worth 3, 4, 8 or 9 points depending on which goal you can score them against. So this guy gave up at least a point, and more likely 3 or 4, to deny me 4 points. So he nets 3 points against me (he had to spend a seat which is at least a point if you do nothing with it, but he cost me 4 points) and nothing against the guy who is in the lead.

Even if he figures I'm the real threat (I do have the end of game 2 red car goal filled and 3 cars vs the orange player's 1 car), he's better off waiting for the next meeting right? I mean if he can score a 4 point goal later on that's just better right? He loses a point for the seat (it's a point at game end if he does nothing with it) but gains 4, so he's up 3 against me and against the other guy too. Whereas now he's just netting 3 points against me, but not the other guy. And if he scores an 8 or 9 point goal it's just plainly better.

In my previous move, I scored a different goal for 6 points, which Orange could have scored if I hadn't, figuring that Yellow wouldn't bother tanking one of the goals as it was suboptimal for him. If anybody was going to tank a goal, I figured it would be Orange, but Yellow did his dirty work for him.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Did it make sense?

 
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If you or him won, it made sense. If Orange won, it did not. What else is there to discuss?
 
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Would’ve been easier to just link the game: http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/kan/partie.php?id=2464

Yellow has just one game completed @baj (and 7 running). He might just be a noob. I’ve seen people who did randomly (?) click on a goal and on yes, because they likely didn’t know what they were doing. Why don’t you just ask him why he did "score" the goal?

Scoring a goal for 0 points is an edge case. I would only do it this early in a game (3rd meeting is highly likely) if it would be easy to gather lots of seats later on.
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Bryan Thunkd
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golden_cow2 wrote:
If you or him won, it made sense. If Orange won, it did not.
I don't believe that to be true. I believe that a move either makes sense or not in the moment. Based on the computable factors available at that moment, you should be able to evaluate the move. How the game ends is bringing in hindsight, which isn't available in the moment and thus is irrelevant to the discussion of whether you should make a move or not. Plus, the result of the game is the sum of all the decisions in the game. Yellow or I might win because orange makes a stupid error later in the game... That wouldn't validate Yellow's current move.

golden_cow2 wrote:
What else is there to discuss?
You know... strategy. That's kind of the whole point of the forum.
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Bryan Thunkd
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yzemaze wrote:
Would’ve been easier to just link the game: http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/kan/partie.php?id=2464
Later on, the current game state won't be apparent. Plus I didn't want to shame the yellow player by naming him.

yzemaze wrote:
Yellow has just one game completed @baj (and 7 running). He might just be a noob. I’ve seen people who did randomly (?) click on a goal and on yes, because they likely didn’t know what they were doing. Why don’t you just ask him/her why he did "score" the goal?
It never occurred to me that the move was a random move or a misclick. My assumption is that it was a deliberate move to deny me points. Thus I thought I knew the purpose of the move and my only question was whether the purpose made logical sense. I suspect the yellow player thinks it makes sense otherwise why would he play it? So there was little point asking his opinion of the move. (Plus a strategy discussion mid-game, especially when I'm essentially calling him out for making a mistake, seems a little rude.)

yzemaze wrote:
Scoring a goal for 0 points is an edge case. I would only do it this early in a game (3rd meeting is highly likely) if it would be easy to gather lots of seats later on.
That's pretty much what I was thinking.
 
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Thunkd wrote:
Later on, the current game state won't be apparent.
Ok, that’s true, but it helps tremendously if you know your way around baj’s Kanban implementation
Thunkd wrote:
It never occurred to me that the move was a random move or a misclick.
It’s unlikely, but possible.
Thunkd wrote:
My assumption is that it was a deliberate move to deny me points. Thus I thought I knew the purpose of the move and my only question was whether the purpose made logical sense. I suspect the yellow player thinks it makes sense otherwise why would he play it? So there was little point asking his opinion of the move.
Given his second scored goal (a few minutes ago) he seems to know what he is doing. So your assumption might be true. If I were him I would’ve rather scored 2p for banked shifts and denied orange 2p. (Given my personal goals don’t score me anything.)
Thunkd wrote:
(Plus a strategy discussion mid-game, especially when I'm essentially calling him out for making a mistake, seems a little rude.)
I’d just ask anyway. I had a few discussions midgame on there in some of my games. Some people even talked about mistakes (theirs and other’s). I don’t see any harm in this as it might even lead to better play overall. And if somebody doesn’t want to discuss it he can just ignore the question/chat. (Most games were quiet from start to finish though).

 
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Bryan Thunkd
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yzemaze wrote:
I’d just ask anyway. I had a few discussions midgame on there in some of my games. Some people even talked about mistakes (theirs and other’s). I don’t see any harm in this as it might even lead to better play overall.
Fair enough. I've posted a comment asking that question. I'll see how he responds.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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The response I got was that he had seats left and nothing better to do with them. The game has ended now and I won 170-107-106. Yellow took second place, but only by a point. This play almost cost him second place.

golden_cow2 wrote:
If you or him won, it made sense. If Orange won, it did not.
I agree that I was the guy to target... but I still think this move didn't make sense. He'd have been better off letting me have an extra 4 points and using his seat to score 8 points, which I think he could have likely done. As it was I didn't even bother scoring the goal he tanked.
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Lawrence Myers
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to give up a red seat and deny an opponent of a goal is one of those moves that does not seem like its worth it. I had someone do that to me also and I was not in the lead either. I think it is a desperate move to rebel against the feeling that the person is falling behind so they want to bring another player down with them. This game can bring out the ruthlessness in some people that cannot be explained.

Edit: I think you talking about an online game, right? No matter it happen to me in cardboard gamming also when the person was sitting right in front of me.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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Bogusgig wrote:
I had someone do that to me also and I was not in the lead either. I think it is a desperate move to rebel against the feeling that the person is falling behind so they want to bring another player down with them. This game can bring out the ruthlessness in some people that cannot be explained.
I have no problem with someone being ruthless. It's a competition and I expect my opponents to compete to the best of their ability.

And if this had been the last turn of the game, I would have likely applauded this move. In that scenario, the yellow player would have been turning a seat that wasn't worth more than a point for him into a denying move that cost me 4 points. That would have been just as ruthless but made a lot more sense.

My problem wasn't that this was a ruthless or jerk move... just that it wasn't a particularly good ruthless, jerk move. As yzemaze pointed out, it was maybe okay if he thought he stood to get a lot of seats before the next meeting, but it just doesn't seem like a good move generally when you can use that seat to better effect later.
 
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Ryan M
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I'm late to this discussion, but thought I'd weigh in anyway.

I think the move makes sense, but I say that without really knowing the mindset of the player who made the move, their hand, how they felt about their position in the game at that point, etc.

However, in rebuttal to your comments on strategy and the "value" of the move, seats can be relatively easy to collect in Kanban as the game progresses. As such, holding 1 vs using it to stop someone else from fully scoring a goal CAN be a good move once in a while. Especially if you feel the cards and gamestate may favor you in the next round leading up to the next meeting or even end game scoring.

Granted, if you feel you regularly need to spend seats to stop others more than gain something yourself, you just aren't playing the game very well. However, as a one-off move if you feel not much else is valuable to you? That one point may potentially help you over the long run by stopping someone else from getting too far ahead.

You ask whether or not he's better off waiting until the next meeting? Hard to say as you really know 1 card that will be in that meeting and the points for any meeting goal are capped. So it is difficult to know for sure if that will be your only shot at points, of if other cards put out also will help you. And if the next meeting also have cards you can't benefit from, then you fall even further behind and stockpile more seats which aren't worth the now larger point gap you face. Then again, if that happens the player is going to lose regardless I would think.

Also, it's not uncommon for some people to try and take down the leader without much thought or concern about other players. It happens and may not be the best move for the player, but they may think it is because losing by less can be seen as better than getting crushed. So that also has some "value" although it is also an admission that they've lost and likely didn't play as good as they could have...which may be due to inexperience.

Ultimately, I think there are times when crunching the numbers and trying to run spreadsheets on any particular move simply doesn't hold up that well. If Kanban had fully open information and was purely a math game, I would agree with you. However, Kanban does have hidden scoring (via secret meeting goal cards) and the game state can change based on how the different departments/plans/cars/cubes all intermingle along with Sandra's action and evaluating, etc. There is so much going on and everything is connected in such a way it makes the "math" difficult to say for certain if the move "makes sense" or not.

As such, I think the move made sense to them in the moment. That's the best we can really say. I don't disagree with your math, but I don't agree with it either as spending that point to block someone CAN be useful and a good strategy. But whether it works out in the long run as planned/hoped is another issue.
 
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