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Subject: Stopping the Rusviet Popularity Machine rss

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Jonathan Kinney
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So here's the situation. Three-player game, Polonia, Saxony and Rusviet. Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory. He then pulled everyone back to his home territory and sat in the trade and paid one coin each round and upped his popularity by two until he made
It into the top tier.

Is there any way to counter this? Basically all I did was try and collect
As many stars and capture as much territory as possible. But it was coming at the expense of being able to up my popularity much.

Thoughts?
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Trevor Schadt
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jonocop wrote:
So here's the situation. Three-player game, Polonia, Saxony and Rusviet. Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory. He then pulled everyone back to his home territory and sat in the trade and paid one coin each round and upped his popularity by two until he made
It into the top tier.
So, six stars, 3 territories (max), almost no coins on his board (since he was spending them all on Trade), and probably relatively few resources (since he wasn't producing or trading for them). If Polania and Saxony are actually taking territories on the board as well as working on their own star count -- because really, what were you doing while Rusviet was "[getting] out to a big star lead?" I think you should be more specific there in step 1. -- then that should more than make up the difference of the increased worth of each of Rus's 6 stars.
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Jonathan Kinney
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One thing I should have been more clear about his last play to lay out his last star. He did a move (he had the ability to do three). He moved and dropped off workers and got into combat for his last star. So he went out across his river laying out and taking a number of hexes (can't remember how many). And he used his village to factory to fight the other faction out there.

By the end I think he had 8 or 9 hexes at the top multiplier, had 6 stars to 4 for me and 3 for Saxony, had a bunch of resources that he had been sitting in for quite a while. At the end I think he had 30
Points for stars, 32 (is it 4x or 3x hexes at the top of the track? I'm not looking right now) for hexes and something like 15 for resources with just a very few coins. He also had the bonus for structures adjacent to lake and had built on the factory hex.

As for what we were doing? We were building the engine that you would normally do in this game. But instead of rushing to get stars out we were trying to get more efficiency. But the speed with which the Ruaviet player got his stars out forced us to panic. For me I did two quick combats to get stars. They worked, but cost me some popularity. I ended with a situation where one more worker and one more upgrade would have gotten me the six stars I needed, but I didn't have the popularity machine to make a run.

 
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Inno Van
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I would negotiate with the other player to pay me to attack the turtle and disrupt his economy, so he wouldn't be able to generate the coins he needed to keep buying popularity.

If you just attack the turtle, the third player wins. It's important to negotiate a payment from the third player so that the two of you end up roughly even despite your sacrifice.
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Jason Brown
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No need to worry about countering him if he only controls his 3 home territories and he's spending his coins on popularity boost, that's an easy win for everyone else in the game.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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jonocop wrote:
As for what we were doing? We were building the engine that you would normally do in this game. But instead of rushing to get stars out we were trying to get more efficiency. But the speed with which the Ruaviet player got his stars out forced us to panic. For me I did two quick combats to get stars. They worked, but cost me some popularity. I ended with a situation where one more worker and one more upgrade would have gotten me the six stars I needed, but I didn't have the popularity machine to make a run.


It seems sort of obvious to say this (and I don't mean to give offense), but "get more efficiency" seems rather nonspecific. The game is an efficiency engine game, sure, but that is a means to an end. To wit:

jonocop wrote:
Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory.


According to this, Rusviet had four stars out before he pulled back. If he got his lead there (i.e. if none of the rest of you had many stars out), then it wasn't the sitting on trade that won him the game: you all were already behind at that point. The trade trick is amusing, but it wasn't the problem.

Someone at four stars in Scythe is end game. If you're not close on the heels from the first person to get there, you're in a rut. Because a two-star turn to end the game is very very common. So I'm not really sure that this is about Rusviet camping trade to get his last star; instead, it's about how he got to four stars before the rest of the competition.....
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jsciv wrote:
jonocop wrote:
As for what we were doing? We were building the engine that you would normally do in this game. But instead of rushing to get stars out we were trying to get more efficiency. But the speed with which the Ruaviet player got his stars out forced us to panic. For me I did two quick combats to get stars. They worked, but cost me some popularity. I ended with a situation where one more worker and one more upgrade would have gotten me the six stars I needed, but I didn't have the popularity machine to make a run.


It seems sort of obvious to say this (and I don't mean to give offense), but "get more efficiency" seems rather nonspecific. The game is an efficiency engine game, sure, but that is a means to an end. To wit:

jonocop wrote:
Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory.


According to this, Rusviet had four stars out before he pulled back. If he got his lead there (i.e. if none of the rest of you had many stars out), then it wasn't the sitting on trade that won him the game: you all were already behind at that point. The trade trick is amusing, but it wasn't the problem.

Someone at four stars in Scythe is end game. If you're not close on the heels from the first person to get there, you're in a rut. Because a two-star turn to end the game is very very common. So I'm not really sure that this is about Rusviet camping trade to get his last star; instead, it's about how he got to four stars before the rest of the competition.....


I agree, once someone gets that 4th star out, the game is near it's end. I'd say on average you have 3-4 (sometimes less) rounds before that 5th and 6th star is added to the board.
 
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Philip Morton
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jsciv wrote:
jonocop wrote:
Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory.

According to this, Rusviet had four stars out before he pulled back.

It's worse than that, that's FIVE stars listed (objective, structures, workers, mechs, combat).
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Chrondeath wrote:
It's worse than that, that's FIVE stars listed (objective, structures, workers, mechs, combat).


I assumed that the combat star was the one he later clarified as the move on the last turn, so not there at time of turtling.
 
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Ryan Sanatavicca
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Rusviet player should have just ended the game quickly instead of sitting there. He would have won regardless if the other two were that far behind, he actually gave you both a chance to get back in the game by doing what he did, either he was trying to be nice and give you guys a way back into the game or he like to torture his friends and watch them struggle to try and catch up.
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Jonathan Kinney
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Ijiasu wrote:
Rusviet player should have just ended the game quickly instead of sitting there. He would have won regardless if the other two were that far behind, he actually gave you both a chance to get back in the game by doing what he did, either he was trying to be nice and give you guys a way back into the game or he like to torture his friends and watch them struggle to try and catch up.


Actually that's not true.

He HAD to get himself into the top tier otherwise he would have lost to me. It was only the multiplier that got him the game. I had four stars (when he ended it), near as many territories, and more money. What I didn't have was a lot of popularity and resources. I couldn't waste a turn collecting popularity through either trading or bolstering (my monument was out). I had to try and get the rest of my stars out before he did and if I had I likely would have won.

The one thing, in retrospect we could have done was to both place huge forces with a big chunk of our workers on the factory and the hex across from his riverwalk space. This would have forced him either lose popularity to get his last combat star or waste time looking for another star while we finished our other objectives. The one thing I've found in my 11 games so far is their hadn't been a lot of cooperation between factions. I think the people I play with are so paranoid about getting screwed over like they do in other games we play.
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Ian Liddle
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What were the final scores? What stars did you and Saxony get, and player mats did everyone have?
 
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Alan Castree
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Everything I typed just went away... Crap. But in a nutshell I agree with you. Rusivet feels a little OP (even though people keep swearing the factions are super balanced). We called that the Rusviet Turtling technique. The more I hear about this Rusveit exploit the more I want to avoid having it in games with lower player counts. You can read more about our discussion here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23105998#23105998

Also, to answer your question, there's nothing you can do. If you attack they'll most likely be able to use 2-6 combat cards in battle (since they're turtling and have all their mechs, workers, and charter on the same hex). If you do beat them in battle you're popularity will drop by 8 (because they carry all their workers with them.

Best think I can think of is form an alliance with other players and all surround their home territory (and villages) to prevent them from spreading out at the end.
 
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Philip Morton
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jonocop wrote:
Ijiasu wrote:
Rusviet player should have just ended the game quickly instead of sitting there. He would have won regardless if the other two were that far behind, he actually gave you both a chance to get back in the game by doing what he did, either he was trying to be nice and give you guys a way back into the game or he like to torture his friends and watch them struggle to try and catch up.

Actually that's not true.

He HAD to get himself into the top tier otherwise he would have lost to me. It was only the multiplier that got him the game. I had four stars (when he ended it), near as many territories, and more money.

You had four stars and all the rest when he retreated with five and started gaining popularity? And didn't manage to get any more before he ended it?
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Ryan Sanatavicca
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Chrondeath wrote:
jonocop wrote:
Ijiasu wrote:
Rusviet player should have just ended the game quickly instead of sitting there. He would have won regardless if the other two were that far behind, he actually gave you both a chance to get back in the game by doing what he did, either he was trying to be nice and give you guys a way back into the game or he like to torture his friends and watch them struggle to try and catch up.

Actually that's not true.

He HAD to get himself into the top tier otherwise he would have lost to me. It was only the multiplier that got him the game. I had four stars (when he ended it), near as many territories, and more money.

You had four stars and all the rest when he retreated with five and started gaining popularity? And didn't manage to get any more before he ended it?


Yeah Chrondeath, I'm with you nothing about his latest comment really adds up to his initial comment.

jonocop wrote:
So here's the situation. Three-player game, Polonia, Saxony and Rusviet. Rusviet got out to a big star lead (completed an objective, placed his buildings, got all his workers and mechs out and had one combat victory.


If Rusviet is only up by one star that is not a big lead in anyway. You should have been able to work your way to another star or two in the time that he was just gaining popularity over what I would assume was three or more turns, you could even attack Rusviet, you steal resources, get a star and stop his turteling. You can even just race him to top tier popularity if you would have won due to current popularity. You either misplayed badly or just didn't realize you could race him in popularity.
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Joseph Cochran
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jonocop wrote:
Actually that's not true.

He HAD to get himself into the top tier otherwise he would have lost to me. It was only the multiplier that got him the game. I had four stars (when he ended it), near as many territories, and more money. What I didn't have was a lot of popularity and resources. I couldn't waste a turn collecting popularity through either trading or bolstering (my monument was out). I had to try and get the rest of my stars out before he did and if I had I likely would have won.

The one thing, in retrospect we could have done was to both place huge forces with a big chunk of our workers on the factory and the hex across from his riverwalk space. This would have forced him either lose popularity to get his last combat star or waste time looking for another star while we finished our other objectives. The one thing I've found in my 11 games so far is their hadn't been a lot of cooperation between factions. I think the people I play with are so paranoid about getting screwed over like they do in other games we play.


So wait.....

He was a little ahead of you in stars (while you were ahead in money and on par in territories), and he had a way to get the last boost he needed, and you couldn't get everyone else to help you gang up on him, and so he's OP because of THAT? I'm sorry, but the more this is explained the more I think this a case of just a player playing well to their strengths than any OP problem.
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A Huynh
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jsciv wrote:
jonocop wrote:
Actually that's not true.

He HAD to get himself into the top tier otherwise he would have lost to me. It was only the multiplier that got him the game. I had four stars (when he ended it), near as many territories, and more money. What I didn't have was a lot of popularity and resources. I couldn't waste a turn collecting popularity through either trading or bolstering (my monument was out). I had to try and get the rest of my stars out before he did and if I had I likely would have won.

The one thing, in retrospect we could have done was to both place huge forces with a big chunk of our workers on the factory and the hex across from his riverwalk space. This would have forced him either lose popularity to get his last combat star or waste time looking for another star while we finished our other objectives. The one thing I've found in my 11 games so far is their hadn't been a lot of cooperation between factions. I think the people I play with are so paranoid about getting screwed over like they do in other games we play.


So wait.....

He was a little ahead of you in stars (while you were ahead in money and on par in territories), and he had a way to get the last boost he needed, and you couldn't get everyone else to help you gang up on him, and so he's OP because of THAT? I'm sorry, but the more this is explained the more I think this a case of just a player playing well to their strengths than any OP problem.


You just don't understand! When I win it is pure skill, but when I lose then the game is unbalanced. Clearly!
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Eric Hogue
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ACGalaga wrote:
Best think I can think of is form an alliance with other players and all surround their home territory (and villages) to prevent them from spreading out at the end.

As the OP pointed out, you only need to cover two territories (unless the Russians have built their mine).
 
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Andre Smothers
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I am confused. He got out to a big lead, and instead of just winning he pulled back to get to tier 3 because you actually were going to win if he didn't? That isn't a big lead. I don't see the point of this.
 
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Phil Campeau
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Tetsuo2k wrote:
I am confused. He git out to a big lead, and instead of just winning he pulled back to get to tier 3 because you actually were going to win if he didn't? That isn't a big lead. I don't see the point of this.


Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

Sure, he can spam Trade to get two popularity every turn, but at a cost of one victory point each time. If you were winning when he turtled, he couldn't have gained more than... maybe 10 points if he went up from the second tier to the third tier. If he had to climb up from the first tier, the cost would barely outweigh the benefit, and the amount of turns it would have taken him to get there is staggering.

This win has nothing to do with overpowered factions, and everything to do with inefficient opponents.
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