$20.00
Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
47 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Glorantha: The Gods War» Forums » Variants

Subject: Cthulhu Wars vs Glorantha - The Crossover rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Everyone wants it, but unless the Kickstart for TGW hits $2,000,000, it's unlikely that we'll get anything official, so how's about we figure out some decent rules for integrating Cthulhu Wars with The Gods' War? This post is just my own ideas, feel free to add/remove/critique

Cthulhu Wars vs Glorantha - The Crossover

Axioms
Any game involving Gods War empires must take place on the Glorantha map (no Earth or Yuggoth or what have you). This is both for thematic reasons (Storm, Dark, & friends don't invade other universes) and for practical ones (the Gloranthan empires have mechanics tied to specific Gloranthan areas).

No one faction is required, and you can in fact have a game take place in Glorantha that consists soley of Cthulhu Wars Factions.

Generally speaking, all Cthulhu Wars factions are considered to be Chaotic (not quite Chaos themselves, but in a similar vein). It is recommended (though not required) that non-Chaotic factions outnumber Chaotic factions.

Any CW rules that require areas to be Land or Sea do not apply to the Skydome or Hell.

Whenever a CW spellbook or ability would give/grant an Elder Sign to a Gloranthan Empire, the Empire receives a Rune instead. Conversely, whenever a CW faction would receive a Rune, they instead draw an Elder Sign.

Where there is no conflict, factions use the rules of their original game.

Neutral Spellbooks, Neutral Monsters, Independent Great Old Ones, Expansion Maps, Terrors, and High Priests from Cthulhu Wars are not supported in these rules.

Game Setup
Because CW factions are Chaotic, they start with no units on the map, and may not be First Player (unless all factions are Chaotic, in which case any Faction, including Chaos, is eligible). However, CW factions do start with 8 Power.

Great Cthulhu can be Awakened in any Ocean area containing a Gate.

Both Hell areas are considered to have Yellow Sign's Ring Glyph, the Skydome areas have its Chevron Glyph, and all Land Areas have its Scratches Glyph.

If Opener is in the game, he may place a free Gate when he Recruits his first Cultist.

If Windwalker is in the game, then Rhan-Tegoth can be Awakened in either the Hells or the Heavens, Ithaqua must replace a Gate in either the Hells or the Heavens, and a gate must exist in both the Hells and the Heavens in order for Windwalker to receive their Spellbook for there being a gate in the area with their Glyph that they did not start in.

When a CW faction first has units in any area, put their Faction Glyph Token in that area to symbolize it as their starting area.

Action Phase
Movement for CW factions is unchanged: 1 power per unit moved, and multiple units can be moved simultaneously, regardless of where they are or where they’re going. CW factions cannot use Travel Arrows, and need no permission to exit Hell, but must still exit into the Gates of Dawn.

Rules for Recruiting, Summoning, and Awakening are unchanged. Therefore, because CW factions start with no map presence, their first unit placement will almost always be a single Cultist, placed in any area on the map.

In battle, all Pains are converted to Routs, though battle abilities which affect Pains also apply to Routs. This means Madness lets Crawling Chaos decide where all units are routed (Fear still lets Darkness override that choice). CW factions may not be routed to areas containing units belonging to the Empire/Faction they just fought, and if they are unable to retreat due to being surrounded in that way, suffer an extra Elimination (as per CW rules).

Gates are not considered buildings in any way, and can co-exist with buildings. Because they are not buildings, CW factions can never meet the requirements to activate Kylerela.

All Minions, Heroes, and Lesser Gods count as Monsters for purposes of all CW rules (including Capture, Spellbooks, etc), while Greater Gods count as Great Old Ones. Conversely, for Gloranthan rules, Cultists count as Minions, Monsters count as Lesser Gods, High Priests & Terrors count as Heroes (though it’s not recommended to allow either unit type), and Great Old Ones count as Greater Gods. Note that this means all Gloranthan units may Capture Cultists, and that no CW units can Capture any Gloranthan units (except for Tsathoggua, who's Capture Monster ability can be used to Capture Minions, Heroes, and Lesser Gods).

Gather Phase
This works exactly the same as the Gather Power phase in Cthulhu Wars, in that CW factions gain power per Cultist, Controlled Gate, Abandoned Gates, etc. Note that Gloranthan factions do not benefit from Abandoned Gates.

Because CW factions are Chaotic, they also never get the 1-Power "Glorantha Boost".

Council Phase
This works very much the same as the Doom Phase in Cthulhu Wars, in that CW factions gain Doom for Gates, Spellbooks, etc. The Ritual of Annihilation may still be performed by CW factions, and can still trigger Instant Death.

During the Chaos Rift struggle, CW factions receive 1 Rune (aka Elder Sign) and they also must contribute 1-6 power to the Chaos Rift (just like Chaos themselves). If there is more than 1 Chaotic Faction, then instead of having the Rift roll a die for each player, have it roll a die for each Non-Chaotic player. If all factions in the game are Chaotic, and the Rift will therefore never close, this phase must still be performed, and the lowest contributor(s) must lose 1 VP.

Doom Points count 1-for-1 as Victory Points. The game ends at 40 VP, but CW factions must still complete all 6 of their faction spellbooks to be eligible for victory. If all of the factions at 40+ VP are CW, and none of them have 6 faction spellbooks, the game continues until either a non-CW faction reaches 40 VP (at which point they win), or one of the CW factions has both 40+ VP and all 6 spellbooks. Any instant victories (such as by Atlach-Nacha) are valid.

Musings
This has not been even slightly playtested, so I imagine it's horribly unbalanced. And the only (AFAIK) previous attempt to bring these games together resulted in the CW Factions stomping the Gloranthan Factions. However, there are a few features that might help:
1) Gloranthan Empires tend to earn more points per round (on average) than CW Factions (considering they get 40 VP in about as many turns as it takes for CW Factions to get 30 Doom).
2) Gloranthans typically can't be Captured, while they can themselves Capture. This is a unique vulnerability for CW factions.
3) CW factions start off the map. This means a common opening will probably be to recruit 5 Cultists in an area, then Build a Gate, accomplishing nothing else. This should give the Gloranthan factions time to build up and prepare.
4) CW factions are uniquely susceptible to "Popping" due to being surrounded after battle.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: I tweaked the rules for the Chaos Rift struggle to hopefully be more balanced, added a recommendation that Chaotic Factions be outnumbered by Non-Chaotic Factions, and added some specific considerations for Cthulhu Wars factions (e.g. Yellow Sign's Glyphs).

EDIT: Explained that CW factions never get the Glorantha Boost
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Mason
United Kingdom
Edinburgh
Midlothian
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I really enjoy stuff like this. On the axioms front I think it can be given a certain narrative frame. The stresses of the Gods War has fractured the universe leading the Great Old Ones to crash in through the sky dome. etc. I think maybe you could posit three "alignments."
Chaotic: goal is to destroy the world and return it to oblivion.
Alien: goal is to either destroy the world so that they can return to the stars or to seal the rift and preside over their own personal charnal house.
Gloranthan: To save the world and preside over it.

This doesn't require any rules based changes as such but it helps give a context and it implies that I think the rules of the game should be the Gods War rules with specific modifications for Alien factions. They are, after all, strangers in a strange land.

My take on your axioms then is:
1. This is an alien invasion of Glorantha so Gods War rules apply.
2. as per you.
3. The non-Gloranthan factions are considered Alien factions.
4. Gloranthan and Chaos factions treat an Elder Sign as a rune that is worth 1-3 VPs when revealed but has no other effects.
5. Alien factions count 1 VP for each rune they have at the end of the game. Alien factions cannot reveal runes for their effect but they can consume a rune at the end of any player's turn. When they consume a rune roll 1 battle die. On no result, the rune is worth 1 VP. On a rout it is worth 2 VPs and on a kill it is worth 3 VPs.
6. Factions use Gods War rules except where their abilities over-ride those rules.

So these axioms are for an alien invasion of Glorantha during the Gods War.

Thanks for starting this off.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I was actually going off an earlier comment, where Sandy said that Chaos is already like if a Lovecraftian Entity invaded Glorantha. The big difference between Chaos and, say, Cthulhu, is that Malia/Thed/Ragnaglar are native Gloranthans, whereas the Big C is entirely foreign. In that way, Cthulhu Wars factions and the Chaos empire have the same 'alignment'.

Your interpretation is interesting, though
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
I agree with you Adam about the alignment thing, although I think it would be interesting if conversely at least one of the Cthulhu Wars factions were more aligned with Glorantha's powers (like maybe even getting the Glorantha boost). I would say that out of all the CW factions, the faction most likely to be aligned with the factions attempting to close the rift would be the Tcho-Tchos, since they serve no Great Old One and their weird alien order benefits more from cosmos than chaos. Nonetheless, even though the "chaotic" CW factions contribute power to the rift, perhaps all players also still have to roll dice to determine the strength of the rift like Chaos does potentially allowing it to close, because CW factions benefit from the Chaos Rift but they still want to control and dominate Glorantha... they just care less what state it is in once they have it.

Also, could the crossover also work if CW factions inflicted "Pains" rather than "Routs", or would this mess up the balance too much?

Finally, I was thinking that some GW units probably SHOULD count as Cultists, because if they don't then a lot of CW units spell-books targeting enemy cultists (like Black Goat's Ghroth) or spell-book requirements (like Crawling Chaos's requirement 'Capture a cultist') will be useless unless there is another CW faction. This being the case, what do you think about making all Mortal Minions "enemy Cultists" for CW factions' purposes? (Mortal Heroes could also be considered "High Priests", but I'm not sure how that would affect balance). But even though they can be captured, the difference between them and Cultists is that they can also fight back! >
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Mason
United Kingdom
Edinburgh
Midlothian
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
PhilyFooFighter wrote:


Also, could the crossover also work if CW factions inflicted "Pains" rather than "Routs", or would this mess up the balance too much?

Finally, I was thinking that some GW units probably SHOULD count as Cultists, because if they don't then a lot of CW units spell-books targeting enemy cultists (like Black Goat's Ghroth) or spell-book requirements (like Crawling Chaos's requirement 'Capture a cultist') will be useless unless there is another CW faction. This being the case, what do you think about making all Mortal Minions "enemy Cultists" for CW factions' purposes? (Mortal Heroes could also be considered "High Priests", but I'm not sure how that would affect balance). But even though they can be captured, the difference between them and Cultists is that they can also fight back! >


I've been working through this for a Cthulhu in Glorantha using Gods War rules and it's generally not too difficult. As you say, you need to add descriptors to units. So for example Acolyte cultists become
Acolyte. Cultist. Minion. Mortal.

That way you can change CC's capture a cultist requirement to "Kill an enemy minion." (Capture doesn't exist TGW rules therefore is not available to Cthulhu factions when they invade Glorantha.) An alternative requirement option given how the rules map would be "Destroy an enemy building."

A High Priest would be
High Priest. Cultist. Minion (perhaps hero). Mortal.

Crawling Chaos is in some ways the hardest of the core four to translate because his cost to strength ratio is all over the place. If you let his Strength be equal to combined Spellbooks and/or gifts then he's way over the top of any Gloranthan unit; even mad god tops out at 10. The power requirements for CC though are horrendous in a TGW framework. Alternately if you don't let him count gifts towards his STR then he's an Orlanth who costs 6 more Power to summon.* Sandy also seems to like CC's spellbooks because they tend to show up in the TGW empires.


*My interpretation of this is that in CW, awakening your GOO is a victory condition. You need 6 spellbooks to win and one is always awaken your GOO. Thus in CW GOOs are costly and awkward on the whole. In TGW, the gods tend to be active from turn 1 or turn 2 and there is no need to get all your gifts to win the game. So the Gloranthan greater gods tend to be much cheaper and much more cost-effective. GOOs and greater gods serve very different roles.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
deleriad wrote:

Crawling Chaos is in some ways the hardest of the core four to translate because his cost to strength ratio is all over the place. If you let his Strength be equal to combined Spellbooks and/or gifts then he's way over the top of any Gloranthan unit; even mad god tops out at 10. The power requirements for CC though are horrendous in a TGW framework. Alternately if you don't let him count gifts towards his STR then he's an Orlanth who costs 6 more Power to summon.* Sandy also seems to like CC's spellbooks because they tend to show up in the TGW empires.


*My interpretation of this is that in CW, awakening your GOO is a victory condition. You need 6 spellbooks to win and one is always awaken your GOO. Thus in CW GOOs are costly and awkward on the whole. In TGW, the gods tend to be active from turn 1 or turn 2 and there is no need to get all your gifts to win the game. So the Gloranthan greater gods tend to be much cheaper and much more cost-effective. GOOs and greater gods serve very different roles.


I'm not sure that should be a problem for the CW factions though. It just means that they end up relying more on their Monsters and it behooves the GW factions to hit the CW factions early and often. As for translating Crawling Chaos though, I see what you mean. It also occurred to me that the spell-book 'Madness' makes less sense under Gods War rules, since if Routs rather than Pains are the norm then the player ALWAYS chooses where the enemy player's units go once they lose in battle. Maybe the crucial difference is that 'Madness' also lets Crawling Chaos send the units to different areas (plus it makes slightly more sense if Crawling Chaos normally inflicts Pains rather than Routs anyway, in which case it DOESN'T get to choose where enemy units go without the spell-book Madness even though its GW opponents can with Routs).

Edit: Also, what do you think about giving the Tcho-Tchos Glorantha boosts and letting them participate on the side of the "cosmic" factions in the Chaos Rift struggle? It occurs to me that unlike the other factions the Tcho-Tchos would otherwise peter out way too quickly in Gods War because the game lasts longer, so this might be a good way of balancing that out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The reason I had it not roll Rift Dice for any Chaotic Factions if there are 2 or more is because they also contribute power to the Rift. For instance, say there's a 5 player game of the core 4 and Great Cthulhu: if you roll a rift die for every faction, that's 5 die, plus both GC and Chaos contributing as well, which is extremely tough for the 3 other factions to beat, and a big advantage to the Chaotics.

I initially tried to keep Pains and Routs separate, but that would give an advantage to CW factions, because that would mean they always pick where Gloranthan forces rout *and* where their own units are pained. In the end, the easiest thing is to convert Pains to Routs.

It's a good point that not treating Minions as Cultists causes problems with Cthulhu Wars Spellbooks & Requirements, but with Cultists, CW factions have a huge numbers advantage over the enemy, which I was trying to mitigate. What if Minions count as Acolyte Cultists for purposes of CW rules, but Buildings also protect against Capture from Monsters? I don't think eliminating Capture entirely is a good idea. It factors in a lot of Cthulhu Wars rules (such as Sleeper's Capture Monster, Windwalker's Ferox spellbook, the need for proper protection of Cultists (which is part of what makes Red Sign great), etc).

Making the Tcho-Tcho semi-Gloranthan (like how Chaos is semi-Cthulhu) makes a lot of sense. Maybe the way to formalize that is to give each CW faction a Weakness. The default would be something like Chaos' "Loathsome", but it could also be customized per faction, as a slight nerf, and could be something else entirely for the Tcho-Tcho.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
Adam, I like your solution about buildings preventing capture. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe this should be limited to buildings capable of defending themselves? If this were the case, then Temples could protect against Monsters and Ziggurats against Great Old Ones. I imagine this rule-set will lend itself to many three-way conflicts, since CW factions may want to attack attacking forces since they'll be unprotected by defending buildings. (On a similar note, I wonder whether or not Buildings should also be considered Gates for Opener of the Way's purposes.)

Why would Cultists be a boon for CW factions in terms of numbers? They can't attack anything; would they even be able to capture buildings on their own?

I get the sense that you all have a better sense of "balance" than I do, so I don't know what to think in terms of weaknesses and whether CW factions need them. If weaknesses are necessary, then "Loathsome" seems like a good default (even for the Tcho-Tcho if necessary). But maybe not getting the Glorantha boost is enough.

Finally, would it really be a terrible thing if the Chaos Rift were open longer than normal because all players roll dice? From my small-minded perspective, I'm thinking that Sandy Petersen made it so that all the players including Chaos have to roll dice to determine the rift's strength for a reason, so if it stays open longer then that's dandy because more players need the Rift than normal.

P.S. I apologize if I don't respond right away since I'm about to go out to lunch. Go ahead and leave a response and I'll be back soon! ^_^

Edit: What if CW factions always inflict Pains, and GW factions always inflict Routs? (Or both can do both?)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Different buildings providing protection makes sense, and might work out. It's certainly something that could be fiddled with, for the sake of achieving balance.

The reason Cultists are a boon to CW is because they are cheap, plentiful meat shields (plus, Black Goat's Cultists can have a Combat of 1).

As for the Rift, Sandy seems to have made it so that it usually remains open for 2-3 turns (give or take a turn). If we're talking about 5 players, that means 4 players fighting the rift, 1 defending it, and 5 dice for the rift itself. If that suddenly switches to 3 players fighting the rift, 2 defending it, and 5 dice for the rift itself, it'll remain open for more turns. Since every turn it's open, those who oppose it lose a unit or building, and Chaos gains a Rune, it staying open longer advantages Chaos. Taken to an extreme (say it's 3 Chaotic Factions vs 1 Gloranthan Faction), that becomes 1 person fighting it, vs 3 defending it, plus 4 dice, which could lead to situations where the 1 person fighting it loses almost their entire faction to the rift before it closes, which basically means they'll never win. Removing the dice for extra Chaotic factions is an attempt to soften that, though I imagine this particular area would need more work to balance out.

If CW factions inflict Pains and GW inflict Routs, that shifts the advantage to GW factions, since that would mean they decide where *all* units retreat at the end of fights.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
Well, if CW factions always inflict Pains and GW factions inflict Routs, maybe that mechanic would mitigate the CW factions' advantage with the Cultists. (Plus each Cultist lost leads to more power lost, a problem GW factions don't share.)

As for the Chaos Rift, I see what you mean. That said, does the Chaos Rift benefit the CW factions that much more than the GW factions? Unless I'm misunderstanding how the rift works, it'll continue to wreck their shit just like their Gloranthan counterparts every turn, so maybe it's in their interest not to allow it to progress SO far that it's annihilating whole factions. In this case this would be the reverse of the situation where various cosmic factions weakly attempt to close the Rift, except that the chaotics would weakly support the Rift instead, allowing it to close if it goes too far.

On another note, it occurs to me that, even though it might not affect game-play in a technical sense, practically if Gates can share space with Buildings that means that an area could have a Gate, a Chaos Nest, AND a normal Building all together so the board could become extremely crowded in places.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GW factions being able to uniquely disperse their own forces via Pains and direct CW forces via Routs would be a massive advantage, and also more complicated than just converting everything to Routs. Plus, it'd be weird if CW forces themselves are never Pained, since that mechanic is from their game.

For the rift, I'm proposing that CW factions don't lose anything to the Rift (I guess excepting Tcho-Tcho), because they *are* the Rift (just like with Chaos).

The problem with treating Gates as Buildings is that destroying Gates is a huge deal in Cthulhu Wars, and having a Lone Troll be able to accomplish such a thing would be nuts. That could be mitigated by giving Gates Auto-Routs or Kills, like Temples and Ziggurats, but then that might give the CW factions even more of an advantage. I also thought of having them simply block off Buildings and/or Nests, but if they aren't Destroyable like buildings, that introduces a whole new host of problems.

In practice, I doubt you'll get many areas that have Gates + Nests + Buildings, but we'd have to see.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
No easy solutions, huh? x)

Even though the CW factions benefit when the Gloranthan factions do not get the Glorantha boost, I think the CW factions should either be affected by the Chaos Rift or not able to throw dice for its defense. Trying to have it both ways makes them too strong and over-complicates things.

As for Gates and Buildings, there could be a rule that an area can have a Gate and a Building, or two Buildings, but never two Buildings and a Gate. That might help avoid clutter.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not sure how having it both ways complicates things, it's just treating them like the Chaos faction. That being said, I'm all for alternative ideas for what to do during the Chaos Rift section.

I'd rather avoid having a rule against 2 buildings and a Gate, until it's proven to be a problem, because it opens up weird interactions. For instance, GW factions now have an incentive to build on Gates, because it means Chaos can't then place a nest there, which may not be a good thing for balance. Besides, I doubt it'll come up much in practice. After all, CW factions will want to build Gates in empty areas when possible (since it's usually a lone Cultist building the gate, and they wouldn't want it to get captured), and Chaos has no reason to put Nests in gated areas (since they don't interact with Festering), and GW factions probably don't want to build in areas with a CW presence (since CW units can be so dangerous).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
Apologies; I didn't see your response because I thought I had subscribed to the thread when I hadn't.

My reasoning for saying I think it over-complicates things is that we end up giving a huge advantage to the CW factions and then we end up changing a rule in the Gods War part of the game which affects a GW faction (Chaos) to compensate, and on top of that I'm unsure whether that compensation is enough anyway to make up for the advantage afforded to the CW factions.

I'm thinking that CW factions should be made to be affected by the Rift but can also roll dice to protect it. Unlike most GW factions the chaotic CW factions don't get the Glorantha Boost, so having the Rift open benefits them, but they also need a reason not to keep it open forever so that negotiating will take place among the chaotics about the Rift similar to the debate that goes on among the cosmic GW factions in a normal game of Gods War (and more obviously so that they don't just stomp all over the GW factions in games where they are a minority).

All of this could be spelled out in a custom-made weakness tailored for the chaotic Cthulhu Wars factions. (I propose the name 'Extradimensional' for the weakness.)

As for the one "cosmic" Cthulhu Wars faction, we could have the Tcho-Tchos get the Glorantha boost and give them the ability to throw dice to close the rift, but make them unaffected by the rift like Chaos. Therefore, the "native" factions have to offer goodies to convince the Tcho-Tchos to help in closing the Chaos Rift. (I would call this ability 'Cosmic Immigrants'. )
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Claus Appel
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
AdamStarks wrote:
CW factions... need no permission to exit Hell

This is boring IMO. The difficulty of leaving Hell is an integral part of the Glorantha map. Just dropping it for all CW factions removes some charm and fun from the game.

I would rather say this:

* By default, all CW units follow the standard rules for leaving Hell.
* The Screaming Dead and the Shantak's ability require permission as normal.
* Seek and Destroy, Shriek of the Byakhee and He who must not be named let you leave Hell by paying VP just like the Stormbrothers' ability.
* Avatar, Necrophagy and the Hound of Tindalos' ability let you leave Hell for free.
* When determining combat dice for permission purposes, take the number of dice it would roll if it were to fight the requesting unit alone (e.g., an Undead rolls zero dice and a Byakhee rolls 2).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
SpectrumDT wrote:

I would rather say this:

* By default, all CW units follow the standard rules for leaving Hell.
* The Screaming Dead and the Shantak's ability require permission as normal.
* Seek and Destroy, Shriek of the Byakhee and He who must not be named let you leave Hell by paying VP just like the Stormbrothers' ability.
* Avatar[i], [i]Necrophagy and the Hound of Tindalos' ability let you leave Hell for free.
* When determining combat dice for permission purposes, take the number of dice it would roll if it were to fight the requesting unit alone (e.g., an Undead rolls zero dice and a Byakhee rolls 2).

Can we boil this down to a hard and fast rule? I think doing this by a case by case basis, however noble the attempt, will be too difficult to remember without custom faction sheets for the CW factions or something like them.

Remind me again, by the way, what the Thunder Brothers' ability is, and what their combat power is, since I don't know either.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not sure it's a huge complication to have CW factions act like Chaos during the Rift, and in fact, one of the reasons I wanted to do so was so that you could swap out Chaos for a CW faction, and have a similar flow (a "What if something *else* came through the rift?" scenario). Maybe something a little more balanced would be to cancel 1 Chaos Rift die for every Chaotic faction above 1. That way, if it was Chaos, Black Goat, Great Cthulhu, and Storm, the Rift would end up rolling zero dice.

That being said, I guess the "What If" scenario could be a special case, where a single CW faction takes the place of Chaos, but in games including Chaos, they instead act similar to the Gloranthan factions?

For Hell Permission, I was worried that all the CW GOOs would end up stuck in Hell, since they have such high combat, but if CW factions have the ability to help close the rift, I guess that would give them an incentive to do so, so they could escape without Permission. The problem is having to special case all of their rules (especially the Undead and Byakhee). Plus, CW factions have to pay to move *per unit*, so it's already more of a pain for them to leave Hell (or even move in general).

For reference, Thunder Brothers Cost 2, have a Combat of 1, and this is their Gift: Whirlwind (pre-Battle) when a Battle is declared involving one or more of your Units (but not a lone building), immediately move one or more Storm Brothers (from any Area) to the Battle Area. If any Storm Brothers exit Hell by this means, pay 1 Power.

Sandy also said in a video that the rule has been update to where if any of them move to the battle, you gain +1 combat (total, not per Thunder Brother).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
AdamStarks wrote:
I'm not sure it's a huge complication to have CW factions act like Chaos during the Rift, and in fact, one of the reasons I wanted to do so was so that you could swap out Chaos for a CW faction, and have a similar flow (a "What if something *else* came through the rift?" scenario).

I totally understand that. I just thought making CW factions unaffected by the Chaos Rift AND being able to throw dice in its defense would give the CW factions too much of an advantage since they seem to be stronger than GW factions in general, plus I didn't like the idea of changing the rules for Empire of Chaos so that its player wouldn't throw a die for the rift's strength like it does in Gods War.

AdamStarks wrote:

Maybe something a little more balanced would be to cancel 1 Chaos Rift die for every Chaotic faction above 1. That way, if it was Chaos, Black Goat, Great Cthulhu, and Storm, the Rift would end up rolling zero dice.

This may be a stroke of brilliance. I'm trying to think about what the potential problems could be, but it seems like a balanced solution. This rule could be built into the "weakness" of the CW factions. I wonder where this leaves the Tcho-Tchos though? They need the Glorantha boost to be viable due to the longer game, I believe; should they play just like a Gloranthan faction due to being Chaos's counterpart? Should they throw a die to determine the Chaos Rift's strength, or are they exempt? Should they also be immune to the Chaos Rift, or not? Whatever rule-set is more balanced, I suppose.

AdamStarks wrote:

That being said, I guess the "What If" scenario could be a special case, where a single CW faction takes the place of Chaos, but in games including Chaos, they instead act similar to the Gloranthan factions?

I suspect you may have misunderstood what I was proposing, but no, I think your solution is fine. I was just saying that if the Cthulhu Wars factions' units were also affected by the Chaos Rift, then that could be a balancing factor if they tend to be more powerful than Gods War factions, plus it would cause the chaotic factions to negotiate more amongst themselves about how strongly to support the Chaos Rift.

AdamStarks wrote:

For Hell Permission, I was worried that all the CW GOOs would end up stuck in Hell, since they have such high combat, but if CW factions have the ability to help close the rift, I guess that would give them an incentive to do so, so they could escape without Permission. The problem is having to special case all of their rules (especially the Undead and Byakhee). Plus, CW factions have to pay to move *per unit*, so it's already more of a pain for them to leave Hell (or even move in general).

I'm confused about Hell Permission. I thought the rule was a unit with 2 Combat or more is needed to gain permission to exit Hell. By this logic, most Cthulhu Wars units with high Combat shouldn't have any problems exiting Hell. The only exceptions to this would be Screaming Dead and Necrophagy because the King in Yellow and Ghouls have 0 combat respectively.

SpectrumDT wrote:

I would rather say this:

* By default, all CW units follow the standard rules for leaving Hell.
* The Screaming Dead and the Shantak's ability require permission as normal.
* Seek and Destroy, Shriek of the Byakhee and He who must not be named let you leave Hell by paying VP just like the Stormbrothers' ability.
* Avatar[i], [i]Necrophagy and the Hound of Tindalos' ability let you leave Hell for free.
* When determining combat dice for permission purposes, take the number of dice it would roll if it were to fight the requesting unit alone (e.g., an Undead rolls zero dice and a Byakhee rolls 2).

I would say that the King in Yellow can exit Hell with Screaming Dead if he has an entourage of three Undead or more (because they fight as a unit and combined they fulfill the 2 Combat requirement), but not otherwise. As for Necrophagy, because the spell-book specifically says 'from anywhere on the map', and the units involved are Ghouls, which are Underworld beings, I imagine that they should be able to exit Hell without Permission using Necrophagy. To my knowledge, these should be the only two exceptions, since Hastur, Shub-Niggurath, each Hunting Horror, and each Byakhee all have at least 2 Combat.

AdamStarks wrote:

For reference, Thunder Brothers Cost 2, have a Combat of 1, and this is their Gift: Whirlwind (pre-Battle) when a Battle is declared involving one or more of your Units (but not a lone building), immediately move one or more Storm Brothers (from any Area) to the Battle Area. If any Storm Brothers exit Hell by this means, pay 1 Power.

Sandy also said in a video that the rule has been update to where if any of them move to the battle, you gain +1 combat (total, not per Thunder Brother).

Many thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Permission to exit Hell must be granted by a unit with a Combat greater than all units leaving Hell. So, if Cthulhu is in Hell, then he can only be granted permission to leave by somebody with a combat of 7 or higher.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
AdamStarks wrote:
Permission to exit Hell must be granted by a unit with a Combat greater than all units leaving Hell. So, if Cthulhu is in Hell, then he can only be granted permission to leave by somebody with a combat of 7 or higher.

Okay, NOW I see what the problem is.

But is that really how the rule works? If you are right about the rule, then any Greater God who moved into Hell could be potentially stuck there unless it came with other units that it could "give permission to" and leave with.

If this is indeed the case though, then Great Old Ones just need to travel to Hell with other units just like Greater Gods do. (Also, I would be inclined to ignore Hell Permission whenever it interfered with a CW ability.)

I greatly suspect though that the rule is merely that the unit needs a Combat of 2 or greater to grant permission to other units to leave (which is why all of Sky's units have a Combat of 1 while in Hell). The rule doesn't make any sense to me otherwise.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The rule is absolutely that the unit needs to have a higher Combat than all units leaving. It's in multiple printed documents, and is what we did when I visited Sandy's house earlier this year

Greater Gods also get stuck there, but their combat is generally lower, and they sometimes have other ways to leave:
- Hellmother can leave Hell freely, due to her Empire's Strength
- Storm King can use Teleport to leave (costs 1 extra though)
- Sun God is indeed stuck in Hell, but his Combat there is only 1, so it's not too hard to let him out
- Lady of Disease has a combat of 0
- Thed could be let out by Ragnaglar, or if she rolls low for her Combat
- Ragnaglar is probably stuck in Hell until the Rift closes, but he tends to come out later in the game anyways
- Red Goddess has a Combat of 1 during Dying Moon
- Magasta has a Combat of 1 until his pool appears (in which case anyone can leave)
- The Titans would be stuck in Hell until the Pool appears
- Some runes can move units around, out of hell, etc

Also, CW factions revolve much more around their Great Old Ones than GW factions do about their Greater Gods, so it's much more debilitating for the former to have them locked in Hell. Plus, if a faction DOES have multiple units trapped in Hell, it only costs 1 power for them to move all units with Permission out. But if a CW faction has multiple units trapped, it costs 1 per Unit, which is way worse.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Claus Appel
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I played a trial game with myself yesterday featuring Sky, Storm, Dark and Great Cthulhu. I used the rules Adam Starks suggested in the opening post of this thread with the following modifications:

Gates and Buildings
* The Plant rune can be used to build a Gate.
* For the purposes of Storm's Insurgency ability, a Gate is like a Chaos Nest.
* Gates cannot be destroyed or conquered by normal means (i.e., without Insurgency). (I considered allowing other players to destroy gates just like Gloranthan buildings, but I felt that was too crippling for the CW factions because Gates are so expensive and CW factions are so dependent on them.)
* For the purposes of CW spellbooks such as Y'ha-nthlei plus spellbook requirements such as Great Cthulhu's "four ocean Gates exist", any building with a cost of 2+ counts as a Gate.

Capture and Cultists
* For purposes of Capture, Minions count as Cultists. Heroes and Lesser Gods count as Monsters.
* Gloranthan factions cannot capture other Gloranthans; they can only capture Cultists. (This makes the Capture mechanic relevant and hopefully balanced for both sides while keeping intra-Gloranthan mechanics unchanged.)
* For purposes of CW spellbooks such as Dreams and Zingaya plus spellbook requirements, any Mortal with a cost of at most 1 counts as an Acolyte Cultist. Any Mortal with a cost of 2+ counts as a Cultist but not an Acolyte.

Hell
* Before Magasta's pool comes into play, a Great Old One may leave Hell without permission by paying 3 VP. (This keeps it non-crippling for CW factions while still punishing them for getting their Great Old One stuck in Hell.)
* I expect to use the other Hell-related changes I suggested above. They did not come into play in this game because Great Cthulhu has no special abilities to leave Hell.

Chaos Rift Struggle
* In this game I counted Great Cthulhu as a fully Chaotic faction.
* In the future I will try this set of rules:
- All CW factions are Chaotic and suffer from Loathsome.
- For every extra Chaotic faction beyond the first, roll two fewer dice for Chaos Rift Strength. E.g.:
- With 2 Chaotic and 2 non-Chaotic factions, the Rift rolls 2 dice.
- With 2 Chaotic and 3 non-Chaotic factions, the Rift rolls 3 dice.
- With 3 Chaotic and 2 non-Chaotic factions, the Rift rolls one die.

Combat
* Gloranthan factions can declare battle even though they roll zero dice; CW factions cannot.
* All Pains are turned into Routs. Routs follow GW rules.
* A CW faction that has 6 spellbooks can Battle as as Unlimited Action. (This compensates for the fact that they need those spellbooks to win.)

Runes and Elder Signs
* CW factions can use Runes as normal.
* In this game I turned all Elder Signs into Runes.
* For my next game, I will let Elder Signs and Runes simply follow the rules. If the rules say you get an Elder Sign (e.g. from awakening Great Cthulhu), you get an Elder Sign. If the rules say you get a Rune (e.g. from Black Market), you get a Rune.
(I don't get why some people want to turn all Runes into Elder Signs for CW factions. Runes are fun!)

Game result and balance
* This game ended up very close: Storm won with 49 VP, Sky 47, Great Cthulhu 46, Dark 45.
* Storm were slightly OP in part because I repeatedly forgot about their Honor weakness.
* Great Cthulhu were far behind in VP right up until the last two turns.
* If I had let Great Cthulhu keep their Elder Signs (as noted above) instead of turning them into Runes, they might have won.
* Any balance testing done by me should be taken with a grain of salt. I am not a very skilled player. I sometimes suck.

Observations
* CW factions hit hard in combat but struggle to earn VP. They need to sink 3 Power in a Gate and 1 Power into a controlling Cultist in order to earn VP; Gloranthans can pay 1 Power for a Shrine.
* CW factions tend to earn more power, but they need to do Rituals of Annihilation almost every turn to keep up VP-wise. A game with two or more CW factions is likely to end in Instant Death. One might consider using a Ritual track for a higher player count so as not to shorten the game.

I want to play some more GW games with the other CW factions.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
Sorry on my tardiness in making replies. By the way, it's really cool that you got to visit Sandy at his house, Adam!

AdamStarks wrote:
The rule is absolutely that the unit needs to have a higher Combat than all units leaving. It's in multiple printed documents, and is what we did when I visited Sandy's house earlier this year

Greater Gods also get stuck there, but their combat is generally lower, and they sometimes have other ways to leave....

Also, CW factions revolve much more around their Great Old Ones than GW factions do about their Greater Gods, so it's much more debilitating for the former to have them locked in Hell. Plus, if a faction DOES have multiple units trapped in Hell, it only costs 1 power for them to move all units with Permission out. But if a CW faction has multiple units trapped, it costs 1 per Unit, which is way worse.


Thanks for the explanation!~ I'm still a little confused about whether or not the unit who gives Hell Permission can leave with the permitted units; I'm assuming they can't?

SpectrumDT wrote:
I played a trial game with myself yesterday featuring Sky, Storm, Dark and Great Cthulhu. I used the rules Adam Starks suggested in the opening post of this thread with the following modifications....

Observations
* CW factions hit hard in combat but struggle to earn VP. They need to sink 3 Power in a Gate and 1 Power into a controlling Cultist in order to earn VP; Gloranthans can pay 1 Power for a Shrine.
* CW factions tend to earn more power, but they need to do Rituals of Annihilation almost every turn to keep up VP-wise. A game with two or more CW factions is likely to end in Instant Death. One might consider using a Ritual track for a higher player count so as not to shorten the game.

I want to play some more GW games with the other CW factions.

Wow, thank you! ^_^

This kind of playtesting is sorely needed!

For better or worse, my own bias is towards keeping things simple, reappropriating existing mechanics, and adding as few new mechanics as possible. The advantage of this approach is it keeps things simple for people playing, the disadvantage being that it limits possible options.

Because of my bias towards simplicity I am skeptical of the proposed rules in the following areas:

Rules for Hell Permission:
I would rather that there be a blanket rule or rules which apply to all CW spell-books, abilities, and GOOs rather than unique exceptions for each of them.

For example, I would make it so that Hell Permission is ignored for all CW spell-books or abilities that it would otherwise interfere with. (The only exception I would make is Screaming Dead because it requires the King in Yellow to move a space, in which case it works if there are at least two Undead moving with the King in Yellow (which have a combined Combat of 1, which is greater than the King's Combat of 0).)

As for GOOs and Hell Permission, perhaps it's better to just make them follow the normal rules and rot in Hell if they can't find anyone to let them out. On the plus side they probably could have Hell firmly under their control, and if they die in Hell they could be re-Awakened elsewhere.

Combat:
I don't understand why CW factions cannot declare combat with 0 dice. They can in Cthulhu Wars, so I don't think this should change.

Also, what if we gave each player the option of whether to inflict Routs or Pains on their opponent (potentially indicated by either CW or GW combat dice?). Most of the time Routs would probably be desirable, but due to certain abilities and/or the possibility of getting more Kills (due to the enemy units not having space to retreat to) inflicting Pains might be more desirable. Because both GW and CW factions would be able inflict either Routs or Pains at their discretion, this would be balanced.

Capturing Cultists:
Most of the Gloranthan deities (with a few exceptions) don't practice human sacrifice, so for thematic reasons I'm not keen on the idea of them being able to Capture Cultists. I'm open to the possibility of giving them an alternative mechanic, like the ability to slaughter (i.e. auto-kill) a Cultist, but is this really an issue? I think the Gloranthan factions could get along just fine without being able to Capture or any mechanic like that.

Cthulhu Wars factions' Weaknesses:

I don't like the idea of giving every CW faction the weakness Loathsome, because it makes Chaos less unique.

Instead, I suggest the following weakness:

Extradimensional: This faction does not receive the Glorantha Boost. It also does not count as a player when rolling for the strength of the Chaos Rift. The player may still spend 1 to 6 Power to strengthen the Chaos Rift.

This Weakness means that if Sky, Great Cthulhu, Dark, and Shub-Niggurath are players, Great Cthulhu and Shub-Niggurath would not roll dice for the rift (meaning the Chaos Rift gets 2 dice) but may still spend their own Power to make it stronger. If Chaos is also in the game, then the Chaos Rift gets 3 dice in addition to the Power paid by Chaos, Great Cthulhu, and Shub-Niggurath. Therefore, Empire of Chaos can keep the Chaos Rift open easier than the other chaotic factions, but on the other hand the chaotic CW factions do not suffer from Loathsome and can be First Player.

Also, this weakness should not apply to the Tcho-Tchos, because I think they need the Glorantha Boost to stay viable. Instead they should have a different weakness and/or strength, or none at all.


Finally, Spectrum, I really, really like your idea of keeping Elder Signs and Runes seperate. You've convinced me that this is more fun. ^_~
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Thanks for the explanation!~ I'm still a little confused about whether or not the unit who gives Hell Permission can leave with the permitted units; I'm assuming they can't?

To leave Hell, departing units must receive permission from a unit with a higher combat than all departing units. This necessarily means the unit giving permission is left behind.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I don't understand why CW factions cannot declare combat with 0 dice. They can in Cthulhu Wars, so I don't think this should change.

Nope, in Cthulhu Wars you must have units in the area totaling at least 1 Combat. This means a lone Nightgaunt can't fight a Star Spawn (and subsequently Abduct it), nor can a Ghoul pick a fight by itself.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Finally, Spectrum, I really, really like your idea of keeping Elder Signs and Runes seperate. You've convinced me that this is more fun. ^_~

I agree keeping them separate would be ideal, but some runes refer specifically to buildings, Lesser & Greater Gods, etc, so I figured it was easier to keep them segregated. That being said, I haven't done any kind of exhaustive analysis, so it very well work out to convert Elder Signs to Runes
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Dale
msg tools
AdamStarks wrote:
To leave Hell, departing units must receive permission from a unit with a higher combat than all departing units. This necessarily means the unit giving permission is left behind.

I thought it just required two units with unequal Power. Gotcha, I understand the rule now. Although I imagine I'm going to hate Hell Permission while playing Gods War. x)

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I don't understand why CW factions cannot declare combat with 0 dice. They can in Cthulhu Wars, so I don't think this should change.

AdamStarks wrote:
Nope, in Cthulhu Wars you must have units in the area totaling at least 1 Combat. This means a lone Nightgaunt can't fight a Star Spawn (and subsequently Abduct it), nor can a Ghoul pick a fight by itself.

I just realized that I may have been playing Cthulhu Wars wrong all along. ^_^ What is the significance of GW units being able to declare combat even if they roll 0 dice? It seems strange to me that GW factions are be able to do this and but CW factions can't for some reason. The way I've been playing my Cthulhu Wars games Monsters could declare combat with another unit regardless of their combat value, whereas Cultists could not declare combat. Huh.

I'm actually inclined to let the Cthulhu Wars factions play by Gods War rules and have their units be able to declare combat even with 0 dice so that we have less arbitrariness to worry about.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Finally, Spectrum, I really, really like your idea of keeping Elder Signs and Runes seperate. You've convinced me that this is more fun. ^_~

AdamStarks wrote:
I agree keeping them separate would be ideal, but some runes refer specifically to buildings, Lesser & Greater Gods, etc, so I figured it was easier to keep them segregated. That being said, I haven't done any kind of exhaustive analysis, so it very well work out to convert Elder Signs to Runes

Okay, I see what you mean. Wouldn't it be possible though to map certain Gods War terms to Cthulhu Wars terms? We've already made Greater God = Great Old One, Monster = Lesser God, High Priest = Hero, and Minion = Cultist. All we have to do is map some Gods War Building terms to Cthulhu Wars "Buildings". Maybe a Shrine = a Cultist, a Temple = a Gate, and a Ziggurat = a Gate and the controlling Cultist? Even better, maybe the Cthulhu Wars factions are seen as lacking Shrines, Temples, and Ziggurats and instead have the unique Buildings 'Gates'. After all Invisible God and Chaos already lack these Buildings and function just fine. I suppose for the Cthulhu Wars factions "enemy-controlled Gates" could be Gates with enemy Minions on them (i.e. in the same Areas as the Gates).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.