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Subject: Why are tabletop fighting games considered niche? rss

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Michael Fong
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I do understand why the casual gamer tend to stay away from fighting video games (you need to practice combos and stuff) but what draws people away from tabletop fighting games like Battlecon or Yomi compared to let's say Magic: the gathering or Mage Wars?
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Ed Hughes
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Yomi and Battlecon are primarily two player games, and casual players tend to gravitate toward party games and lighter type games. Also, Yomi is exceedingly expensive for what it is. Battlecon never seems to show up on retail shelves, which doesn't help. I think it suffers from distribution and exposure problems. That said, it spreads by word of mouth, so who knows? Maybe it'll hit that critical mass of players and become more mainstream.
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Vadim Golembo
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Do you play war games?
The ones with like 2d6 and a hundred little chits, depicting a little known battle in one of the minor wars.
How about like Warhammer 40k? Want to build and paint $200 worth of models before any dice are rolled? (I do, I have like 3 different factions).
Lots of folks do but probably not as many as those that play Settlers of Catan or [insert popular board game here].
Me and a friend play BattleCon, and love it. But I have a few other friends that aren't crazy about it. They like it when we talk them into playing but it's not their goto game.
Magic the Gathering is a whole different animal. It has so much social momentum behind it that getting in is relatively easy. You can learn from the video game, there are crappy and fairly good starter decks, and most people at a local game store can teach you even if they haven't played in years.
I think some people prefer a game where they learn the mechanics and then play. In BattleCon you need to do that and then figure out which fighter you want to master...you know...it's a whole world of stuff to experiment with.
Maybe it come down to theme.
Some folks want to build decks, some want to place workers, some want to...what ever.
Either way, I can't wait for the app to come out so I can play more often.
As far as niche...everything is niche.
There are just more people that fit into some niches.

[Not sure why I typed all that but thanks for the writing prompt.]
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Aaron White
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I think it is a niche because fighting games shine when both players have several games under their belt. Your first experience with BattleCON or Yomi is often not your best experience. When you have had your third to fifth game together the rules click and you have an awesome time together.

If you don't get past your first games or if you cannot play with the same people then you can be turned off BattleCON or Yomi before you appreciate them. Plus an over eager experienced player can completely destroy a new player, which is not fun for the new player.

Exceed I think is different. I have found that unlike BattleCON or Yomi a new player can understand what is going on in the first game. They might not know all the characters and moves by heart, but they can judge the cards in hand and combine them to do cool things. When they do these cool things it is exciting and they get the enjoyment of a fighting game without the grind to get better.

In one game against a new Reese player I had landed two big hits in a row that left them on 3 life but left me with only 1 card in hand. Seeing their chance they went into Exceed mode and managed to land hit after hit with advantage. I was forced to wild swing constantly and I lost this game. My opponent loved it and still plays Reese regularly.

I remember reading a design post by Brad Talton about his experience meeting the Hearthstone designers? I am going from memory so please correct me if I am wrong. One point that endured from that post was the idea of maximising the first time play experience to hook the player. I think a fighting game designed with this in mind will break the niche category and believe Exceed is that fighting system.

To anyone reading this who has not played Yomi or BattleCON, please take the time to get to know the games. Some games might not endure repeated play, but Yomi and BattleCON will last you a life time. If you want a taste without investing too much money, consider the following.

1) The Round 1 Yomi Box (for repeated play with few characters).
2) The upcoming BattleCON Kickstarter (September).
3) Exceed box set (4 characters, pick any one, love to bits).
4) Flash Duel (simple rules, awesome replay, heaps of modes, portable).
5) Dragon Punch (minimalist, super portable, great fun, easiest to play).
6) Brawl decks by Cheapass (best realtime fighting card game ever).

Thank you for reading.
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Nathaniel Chambers
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I can tell you why I have shied away from Battlecon. It's because when you first start playing, and even little after, there's so many turns where you accomplished nothing, or worse yet, only accomplished being hit. I'm positive if it clicked for me, this would be reduced. But the ability to have 3 turns in a row or so where my opponent manages to hit me and I manage nothing, well, that's just plain not fun. I'm good at board games, very good at euro games, but I'm terrible at this game.

Magic The Gathering made a huge splash, people are likely to play that because of the insane marketing machine behind it. Mage Wars is made by a bigger company I believe, again with a bigger marketing push.

I grew up a huge fighting game fan, I wanted to love this game so so much. But every time I get it out I end up feeling very unhappy about my session and quickly wanting to play something (anything) else.

The fighting game themed game that I like is Puzzle Strike. I think it works best because they managed to make the best game they could, themed with the idea of a fighting game, but not tied to it. Battlecon's theme is amazing, outstanding even. On paper it seems like one of the best themed games I've ever played. But actually playing it, turns out it just wasn't for me.

I tried playing Yomi once, same guy who made Puzzle Strike, but I remember it being not for me. Can't remember why.

I found the first moba I learned, League Of Legends, less frustrating to learn than this game. Granted, I didn't have to deal with the worst of the worst people on the internet while playing this though lol.

Hope this helps you understand. I'm selling my copy sadly.
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Alex Martinez
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People play games they see people playing.

The games with the widest appeal tend to be easy to pick up and understand. You may not do well with them at first, but you can understand the principle easily enough.

Most wide appeal games are broad in their aesthetic. This is why something like Ticket to Ride (trains) or Cataan (little markers made of wood on a colorful board) continue to be easy to sell to people.

I personally love the genre of fighting game themed board games. I own a ton of them, and they all manage to bring something interesting to the table. However, they tend not to hit these three elements very well.

I've had the most success with Flash Duel because it goes by so fast people can go through their learning phase faster, and so far Exceed has worked better because it is shaped more like a traditional card game.

Still, as a genre, it's probably going to stay smaller by virtue of all my cited reasons as well as the other reasons given by other posters.
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Michael Fong
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bubblepipemedia wrote:
I can tell you why I have shied away from Battlecon. It's because when you first start playing, and even little after, there's so many turns where you accomplished nothing, or worse yet, only accomplished being hit. I'm positive if it clicked for me, this would be reduced. But the ability to have 3 turns in a row or so where my opponent manages to hit me and I manage nothing, well, that's just plain not fun. I'm good at board games, very good at euro games, but I'm terrible at this game.

Magic The Gathering made a huge splash, people are likely to play that because of the insane marketing machine behind it. Mage Wars is made by a bigger company I believe, again with a bigger marketing push.

I grew up a huge fighting game fan, I wanted to love this game so so much. But every time I get it out I end up feeling very unhappy about my session and quickly wanting to play something (anything) else.

The fighting game themed game that I like is Puzzle Strike. I think it works best because they managed to make the best game they could, themed with the idea of a fighting game, but not tied to it. Battlecon's theme is amazing, outstanding even. On paper it seems like one of the best themed games I've ever played. But actually playing it, turns out it just wasn't for me.

I tried playing Yomi once, same guy who made Puzzle Strike, but I remember it being not for me. Can't remember why.

I found the first moba I learned, League Of Legends, less frustrating to learn than this game. Granted, I didn't have to deal with the worst of the worst people on the internet while playing this though lol.

Hope this helps you understand. I'm selling my copy sadly.


My personal opinion is that people in general dislike direct conflict and so they shy away from fighting games like Battlecon and yomi where each character represents the player himself. Another factor is that fighting games are mostly skill based and if you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself. I think what you mentioned about the terrible feelings that you've experienced adheres to this.
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Michael Fong
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N0mE wrote:
Do you play war games?
The ones with like 2d6 and a hundred little chits, depicting a little known battle in one of the minor wars.
How about like Warhammer 40k? Want to build and paint $200 worth of models before any dice are rolled? (I do, I have like 3 different factions).
Lots of folks do but probably not as many as those that play Settlers of Catan or [insert popular board game here].
Me and a friend play BattleCon, and love it. But I have a few other friends that aren't crazy about it. They like it when we talk them into playing but it's not their goto game.
Magic the Gathering is a whole different animal. It has so much social momentum behind it that getting in is relatively easy. You can learn from the video game, there are crappy and fairly good starter decks, and most people at a local game store can teach you even if they haven't played in years.
I think some people prefer a game where they learn the mechanics and then play. In BattleCon you need to do that and then figure out which fighter you want to master...you know...it's a whole world of stuff to experiment with.
Maybe it come down to theme.
Some folks want to build decks, some want to place workers, some want to...what ever.
Either way, I can't wait for the app to come out so I can play more often.
As far as niche...everything is niche.
There are just more people that fit into some niches.

[Not sure why I typed all that but thanks for the writing prompt.]


You do bring up a good point about everything being niche and that some niche just fit a lot more people. However, what I'm interested in learning is what defines this fighting tabletop niche.
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Michael Fong
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Rook96 wrote:
I think it is a niche because fighting games shine when both players have several games under their belt. Your first experience with BattleCON or Yomi is often not your best experience. When you have had your third to fifth game together the rules click and you have an awesome time together.

If you don't get past your first games or if you cannot play with the same people then you can be turned off BattleCON or Yomi before you appreciate them. Plus an over eager experienced player can completely destroy a new player, which is not fun for the new player.

Exceed I think is different. I have found that unlike BattleCON or Yomi a new player can understand what is going on in the first game. They might not know all the characters and moves by heart, but they can judge the cards in hand and combine them to do cool things. When they do these cool things it is exciting and they get the enjoyment of a fighting game without the grind to get better.

In one game against a new Reese player I had landed two big hits in a row that left them on 3 life but left me with only 1 card in hand. Seeing their chance they went into Exceed mode and managed to land hit after hit with advantage. I was forced to wild swing constantly and I lost this game. My opponent loved it and still plays Reese regularly.

I remember reading a design post by Brad Talton about his experience meeting the Hearthstone designers? I am going from memory so please correct me if I am wrong. One point that endured from that post was the idea of maximising the first time play experience to hook the player. I think a fighting game designed with this in mind will break the niche category and believe Exceed is that fighting system.

To anyone reading this who has not played Yomi or BattleCON, please take the time to get to know the games. Some games might not endure repeated play, but Yomi and BattleCON will last you a life time. If you want a taste without investing too much money, consider the following.

1) The Round 1 Yomi Box (for repeated play with few characters).
2) The upcoming BattleCON Kickstarter (September).
3) Exceed box set (4 characters, pick any one, love to bits).
4) Flash Duel (simple rules, awesome replay, heaps of modes, portable).
5) Dragon Punch (minimalist, super portable, great fun, easiest to play).
6) Brawl decks by Cheapass (best realtime fighting card game ever).

Thank you for reading.


What do you think makes Exceed easier to get into compared to Yomi? I would think that Yomi is as easy or even easier to learn.
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Aaron White
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ryanefong wrote:
What do you think makes Exceed easier to get into compared to Yomi? I would think that Yomi is as easy or even easier to learn.

That is a great question because on the surface Yomi is very simple. Attack beats throw, throw beats block or dodge, block or dodge beats attack. But the payoffs for winning with different cards are not clear until you have played quite a few games. Plus the payoffs are different depending on the character you are using. So a new player can get the core mechanic, but miss the winning concepts.

I cannot put my finger on what makes Exceed easier to learn, but I think it is because you can approximate. You have a hand of cards with specific moves. By comparing the speed, power and range on the cards you can get an idea of what is fast/slow/soft/hard/etc. Then you compare this to your position on the track and the number of cards in your opponents hands. Then you can make a pretty informed decision on what you want to do and how you will do it. Then when your decisions pay off and you do cool stuff you have fun.

I also want to mention my experiences playing games with my daughters. We play lots of different games, but in the fighting game niche the two that get the most play are Flash Duel and Exceed. The girls can play Yomi and BattleCON, but these games are very precise and unforgiving of mistakes. Flash Duel and Exceed have a wider margin of error and are easier to approximate your decisions, plus are a lot of fun.

Hope that helps.
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K
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Well, basically the only two things that will determine whether a game is stuck in niche status or not are how well it is marketed, and how large of an audience there is for it in the first place. To some extent, I think the fighting card games have suffered from deficiencies in both. However, I think Yomi in particularly could have potentially appealed to a much wider audience than it has with better marketing. Hopefully it's not too late for it to somehow have a resurgence of sorts. Very good, well suppoted, and polished game.

Rook96 wrote:
That is a great question because on the surface Yomi is very simple. Attack beats throw, throw beats block or dodge, block or dodge beats attack. But the payoffs for winning with different cards are not clear until you have played quite a few games. Plus the payoffs are different depending on the character you are using. So a new player can get the core mechanic, but miss the winning concepts.


Personally I think of ease of "learning" a game as how easy it is to get up and running, not how hard it is to play well, so I would describe Yomi as easy to learn but hard to master.

Rook96 wrote:
The girls can play Yomi and BattleCON, but these games are very precise and unforgiving of mistakes...Flash Duel and Exceed have a wider margin of error and are easier to approximate your decisions, plus are a lot of fun.

Hope that helps.


Hm, Flash Duel is very, very, VERY unforgiving of mistakes. But if you and your daughter haven't reached that point yet I'll let you live in your bliss =P

Still have to try Exceed, which I would love to do.
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Dom Hiob
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ryanefong wrote:
I do understand why the casual gamer tend to stay away from fighting video games (you need to practice combos and stuff) but what draws people away from tabletop fighting games like Battlecon or Yomi compared to let's say Magic: the gathering or Mage Wars?


I don't know whether I agree with the premise of the question.

I'm actually not sure anyone is "drawn away" from tabletop fighting games.

Let's look at some of the games that are out there: BattleCON, Yomi, EXCEED, Dragon Punch. Three of these are by Level 99, Yomi is by Sirlin Games. All of them had associated Kickstarters. None of them are by a "major" publisher. None of them are easily found in "mainstream" retail (compare to games by larger publishers, like Codenames, Agricola/Caverna, even Castles of Burgundy. I could get each of these in a non-geeky toy store in my city).

So lack of exposure might easily play a part. Also, note how MtG and even (to a much lesser degree) Mage Wars tournaments are quite common, while AFAIK there's no fighting game that has a huge tournament scene comparable to that of MtG.

--

As for ease of learning: I don't know that I would call Yomi easy to learn I think it has a number of rules that at first are rather fiddly (attack sequence, powering up, timing of special abilities, mixup normals and knockout). At some point, they become second nature, however. I agree it takes quite a while to see anything in the game beyond randomness (don't ask just how many times the randomly playing bot won against me. I'm full of hope that I've finally picked up on some strategy, however.).

For me, Exceed was really quick to pick up (but I'm coming from BattleCON, so there's that.) I think Exceed is pretty streamlined as regards gameplay (that there's Force and Gauge is maybe the only redundancy, though I'm not sure even about that). Timing is basically a non-issue.
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Michael Fong
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DomHiob wrote:
ryanefong wrote:
I do understand why the casual gamer tend to stay away from fighting video games (you need to practice combos and stuff) but what draws people away from tabletop fighting games like Battlecon or Yomi compared to let's say Magic: the gathering or Mage Wars?


I don't know whether I agree with the premise of the question.

I'm actually not sure anyone is "drawn away" from tabletop fighting games.

Let's look at some of the games that are out there: BattleCON, Yomi, EXCEED, Dragon Punch. Three of these are by Level 99, Yomi is by Sirlin Games. All of them had associated Kickstarters. None of them are by a "major" publisher. None of them are easily found in "mainstream" retail (compare to games by larger publishers, like Codenames, Agricola/Caverna, even Castles of Burgundy. I could get each of these in a non-geeky toy store in my city).

So lack of exposure might easily play a part. Also, note how MtG and even (to a much lesser degree) Mage Wars tournaments are quite common, while AFAIK there's no fighting game that has a huge tournament scene comparable to that of MtG.

--

As for ease of learning: I don't know that I would call Yomi easy to learn I think it has a number of rules that at first are rather fiddly (attack sequence, powering up, timing of special abilities, mixup normals and knockout). At some point, they become second nature, however. I agree it takes quite a while to see anything in the game beyond randomness (don't ask just how many times the randomly playing bot won against me. I'm full of hope that I've finally picked up on some strategy, however.).

For me, Exceed was really quick to pick up (but I'm coming from BattleCON, so there's that.) I think Exceed is pretty streamlined as regards gameplay (that there's Force and Gauge is maybe the only redundancy, though I'm not sure even about that). Timing is basically a non-issue.


You bring up some good points especially about all of them being on kickstarter by small publishers.
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Michael Fong
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Rook96 wrote:
ryanefong wrote:
What do you think makes Exceed easier to get into compared to Yomi? I would think that Yomi is as easy or even easier to learn.

That is a great question because on the surface Yomi is very simple. Attack beats throw, throw beats block or dodge, block or dodge beats attack. But the payoffs for winning with different cards are not clear until you have played quite a few games. Plus the payoffs are different depending on the character you are using. So a new player can get the core mechanic, but miss the winning concepts.

I cannot put my finger on what makes Exceed easier to learn, but I think it is because you can approximate. You have a hand of cards with specific moves. By comparing the speed, power and range on the cards you can get an idea of what is fast/slow/soft/hard/etc. Then you compare this to your position on the track and the number of cards in your opponents hands. Then you can make a pretty informed decision on what you want to do and how you will do it. Then when your decisions pay off and you do cool stuff you have fun.

I also want to mention my experiences playing games with my daughters. We play lots of different games, but in the fighting game niche the two that get the most play are Flash Duel and Exceed. The girls can play Yomi and BattleCON, but these games are very precise and unforgiving of mistakes. Flash Duel and Exceed have a wider margin of error and are easier to approximate your decisions, plus are a lot of fun.

Hope that helps.


I do agree that it is easy to learn the rules of Yomi but it is hard to understand how to play Yomi. Now that I think about it, fighting games may seem repetitive to a person who just doesn't get it. My significant other mentioned to me that she likes Mage Wars more than Battlecon or Exceed because there's just more stuff. I'm guessing what she meant is that there is more to do than just attack, block, and dodge. I should also mention she likes Exceed more than Battlecon most likely for the same reasons you mentioned.
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Aaron White
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SirHandsome wrote:
Hm, Flash Duel is very, very, VERY unforgiving of mistakes. But if you and your daughter haven't reached that point yet I'll let you live in your bliss =P

Still have to try Exceed, which I would love to do.

I have definitely not reached that point yet. Played a few games online and I get beaten a lot in Flash Duel against the good players.

But I think the quick play and best of five format is what makes it forgiving. If you make a mistake, you still have several more chances to come back in later bouts. When playing casually this is Flash Duels biggest charm. Make a mistake in Flash Duel it's like "oh well". Make a mistake in BattleCON and it's like "game over man, game over".

Regarding the polished comment for Yomi I have mentioned it before but will say it again - the best looking cards and component quality out of any of the games. All the games have good quality. But when you hold the Yomi cards it blows my mind still. Will never ever sleeve these cards because they do not need it.
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After a decade of playing games to win I've realised I'm in a minority.

Many people aren't playing games to win, and further to that, many of the remainder might be playing to win but don't like to lose without feeling like they have accomplished anything.

Many fighting games are setup so that a skill gap leads to a shut out. The audience for this type of game is niche - some types of players drawn to it are those who like to dominate others and those who are willing to lose many games before getting better. Those groups are certainly not common types of gamers.
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I'd say the main issue here is pacing. Fighting games are high speed and adrenaline-packed, but most of the fighting tabletop games we have are unusually prone to Analysis Paralysis. AND, since most "serious" tabletop gamers are against the use of timers, its something hard to solve.
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dinobottm2 wrote:
I'd say the main issue here is pacing. Fighting games are high speed and adrenaline-packed, but most of the fighting tabletop games we have are unusually prone to Analysis Paralysis. AND, since most "serious" tabletop gamers are against the use of timers, its something hard to solve.


FWIW: One gamer in my group declined playing BattleCON because it was too high-adrenaline for him!
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Alex Brown wrote:
After a decade of playing games to win I've realised I'm in a minority.

Many people aren't playing games to win, and further to that, many of the remainder might be playing to win but don't like to lose without feeling like they have accomplished anything.

Many fighting games are setup so that a skill gap leads to a shut out. The audience for this type of game is niche - some types of players drawn to it are those who like to dominate others and those who are willing to lose many games before getting better. Those groups are certainly not common types of gamers.


Interesting take on what makes fighting games niche. I agree with your points. I guess when you're playing a fighting game, it's either you win or you lose.
 
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ryanefong wrote:
Alex Brown wrote:
After a decade of playing games to win I've realised I'm in a minority.

Many people aren't playing games to win, and further to that, many of the remainder might be playing to win but don't like to lose without feeling like they have accomplished anything.

Many fighting games are setup so that a skill gap leads to a shut out. The audience for this type of game is niche - some types of players drawn to it are those who like to dominate others and those who are willing to lose many games before getting better. Those groups are certainly not common types of gamers.


Interesting take on what makes fighting games niche. I agree with your points. I guess when you're playing a fighting game, it's either you win or you lose.


Perception is such an interesting thing. I played Battlecon with many people, and I can tell when someone is going to like it because at some point in the game, they'll either A) realize a play that could've worked better or B) execute a maneuver that works just as they intended.

Players that do not have that "Eureka Moment" do NOT, generally, enjoy the game. Instead, they just feel like it's a complicated card game they don't understand, and since they don't understand it, it just seems like a lot of luck.

Players who do have that moment begin to see all the cool interactions and possibilities.

That, to me, is probably the biggest stumbling block for many players. Many games are what I consider low interaction. While other players might hamper or interfere with your plans, you are mostly striving to execute your own plan with a few minor obstacles from opponents. Most of the "fighting genre" games are high interaction. Anticipating and outmaneuvering your opponent is the crux of the game.

For many people, this is confusing. I've been asked, "What should I do?" dozens of times, and when I answer, "Depends on what you think I'll do", many players simply don't like that answer.

It's not a question of right or wrong, but if you're looking to memorize a series of strategies that you execute with rote habit, these games often are the opposite of that.
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