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Subject: Mesmerist Clean up effect rss

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AY Ronny
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Mesmerist
Clean up step: Return the chosen staff member. You may not choose that staff member again.

Does it mean I cannot choose that staff member again for the rest of the game?

If another player gains control of my Mesmerist, does that Mesmerist 'forgets' who he chose before?
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chris capasso
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You cannot choose that staff member for the rest of the game.

If someone else take your mesmerist, they also can not take that staff member. It would not be considered a new object, it stays on the field throughout the entire process of being moved. Thus, it remembers which staff members have been chosen.

If it gets discarded and replayed, I believe you can select the same staff member again, as far as my knowledge of the game dictates.

I'm pretty certain of these answers but you can wait for a dev response.
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Joel Finch
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Chris has it correct: The same staff member cannot be chosen for the remainder of the game. However, if the Mesmerist leaves play (discarded or buried), and is later re-introduced, it's considered a new staff member and the limitations are started fresh.
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Phil
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Am I missing something in the rules? The Mesmerist doesn't actually say to return the chosen staff member, it just says to add a token to them, and move them to your park until Cleanup. Once Cleanup happens, it doesn't specify what happens to the mesmerized Staff Member.

Looks like in the Beta rules, the card explicitely stated you give the Staff Member back, but that rule wasn't carried over to the updated card.
 
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William Aull
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Reading the card, you leave the Mesmer token on the unit taken, and that unit can't be Mesmer'd again.

Looks pretty straight-forward IMO
 
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Phil
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My question isn't about the token, but about moving the card around. The card specifically says you "Add a mesmerism token and move them to your park until the Cleanup step." What happens during the Cleanup step?

If you do something with the mesmerized Staff Member during cleanup, it doesn't say what (keep them, give them back, discard them, etc.). If you don't do something to the Staff member, why does it mention Cleanup at all.

The original version of the card explicitely said that during Cleanup you gave the staff member back to whoever you took it from (and it keeps the token), but the new card does not say that. Either they took that rule away because they didn't like it, or the rule is still there but they didn't have the room for the extra text.

Now for me, it makes more sense thematically to return the mesmerized Staff Member during cleanup.
 
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Phil
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joelfinch wrote:
Chris has it correct: The same staff member cannot be chosen for the remainder of the game. However, if the Mesmerist leaves play (discarded or buried), and is later re-introduced, it's considered a new staff member and the limitations are started fresh.


So would it be correct that if the Mesmerist is dismissed/removed/discarded etc. that you immediately remove any mesmerism tokens already on Staff?
 
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Matt Taylor
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Even if not explicitly stated the wording which indicates that the staff member is moved to your park 'until the cleanup step' would suggest they return to their owner during that step wouldn'tit?

If I tell my wife, I am going for a jog* and will be out 'until 6.00am', it implies that I will return home thereafter.

*luckily the chances of me ever going for a jog make this a redundant analogy.
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Joel Finch
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In Unfair, the rules are executed as stated, and nothing else happens by itself unless it's in the base rules.

So if the Mesmerist is dismissed, the tokens stay in place. If a new Mesmerist were recruited again later, the staff who had already been "in the show" (mesmerised) previously have retained their tokens and are immune.

Tokens are moved when a staff member moves, and discarded when they are dismissed, but otherwise they stay in place indefinitely.

The wording on the Mesmerist changed from an explicit separate Cleanup step rule because we were aware that it allowed abuse of the card that we didn't want (sometimes cards can be abused in ways we do want )

Under the old wording, if you were to mesmerise a staff member, and then dismiss the Mesmerist, the Cleanup step rule would have been removed, and you would have kept the "borrowed" staff member.

With the new wording, the move-until-the-Cleanup-step is all part of one rule, initiated when you mesmerise the staff member and not completed until you return them *but* crucially because it is all one rule, the Mesmerist doesn't need to be present for it to apply - the instruction has already been issued before he leaves.

You can off course still mesmerise staff and then use an action to dismiss them. However, I'm okay with burning an action to get no benefit, but using an action to get to keep the exact staff member of your choice is a little more benefit than we wanted.
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Phil
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To belabor the point , the rules as stated on the card don't actually specify that you return the mesmerized staff back to whoever you took them from (they don't actually state what happens with the card). I can certainly infer that that is what you do, and it suggests it, but it doesn't actually say that.

Regardless, that's how I would have played it anyways.

I only bring it up as I have a different game where I got a ruling on a card from the designer that was actually the opposite of what the card actually says.
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Joel Finch
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Magic the Gathering has been producing cards for some time with text along the lines of:

"You gain control of target creature until end of turn"
without needing to explicitly state:
"and then you return control to the player who previously had it".

Giving a time limit is a generally accepted indicator that the previous state returns when the time is up.

There is always a tension between rule clarity and rule bulk, but if it proves to be a source of confusion for many people, we'll look at clarifying the wording.
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Sonny A.
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joelfinch wrote:
Chris has it correct: The same staff member cannot be chosen for the remainder of the game. However, if the Mesmerist leaves play (discarded or buried), and is later re-introduced, it's considered a new staff member and the limitations are started fresh.


joelfinch wrote:
So if the Mesmerist is dismissed, the tokens stay in place. If a new Mesmerist were recruited again later, the staff who had already been "in the show" (mesmerised) previously have retained their tokens and are immune.


Are these not contradicting rulings?

Which of them is true?
 
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Joel Finch
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There's no contradiction, the card rules discussed in the post from Aug 2016 are different from the rules discussed later. The original version of the card available in the PnP prior to the Kickstarter campaign didn't include tokens for tracking which staff members had been mesmerised, and thus it was an intangible state tracked by the requirement "not to choose the same staff member again". If the Mesmerist left play, that intangible tracking would be reset as mentioned.

In the later rules version, the Mesmerist started placing tokens, and it's those that stay in place even after the Mesmerist has left play, preventing any new future incarnation of the Mesmerist from choosing them again.
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