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MBT (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Field of Fire rss

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B. B.
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The optional rule 7.8 Turrets is in play.

The M1A1 Abrams has TT:3. So it is a Turreted Vehicle (see 4.4.3.1.1) and it is able to adjust his turret up to three hexes during the Adjustment Phase and during the Movement Phase (see 7.8.1).

All that is clear to me, but I don't understand, what is the Field-of-Fire of the Abrams turret or in other words, at which hexes can he shoot?

Assume the following situation:



(1) If the Field-of-Fire is 60° (Yellow area), the Abrams cannot attack any Soviet vehicles.

(2) If the Field-of-Fire is 120° (Red area), the Abrams can attack BMP-2 only.

(3) If the Field-of-Fire is 180° (Blue area), the Abrams can attack BMP-2 and BMP-3 only.

(4) If the Field-of-Fire is 360°, the Abrams can attack every Soviet vehicle.

I know that in the Basic Game Rules a Turreted Vehicle has an all-round Field-of-Fire. But this makes no sense when playing with the optional rule 7.8 Turrets. For what reason should a Turreted Vehicle ever adjust its turret if the vehicle is able to attack any target within 360° anyway?

EDIT: Added the turret and colored fields-of-fires to the screenshot.
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Mark Russo
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If you are using optional rule 7.8 Turrets then you should also use the Turret Markers (I don't see one in your custom vassal module screenshot).

The Turret Marker has a Field-of-Fire described by the hexside the "gun tube" image is facing.

While not stated explicitly in the rulebook, that I can find, I guess it is just assumed that a turret has a 60° Field-of-Fire.

Good catch though if it's not in rulebook.

edit:
Middle of rule 7.8, 2nd paragraph
"....turreted vehicles may only direct fire at
targets that fall within their turret’s Field-of-Fire depending on the
weapon employed."

So I'm guessing we need to know where to find each vehicle's turret Field-of-Fire?
 
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B. B.
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Sorry. You are right. I assumed that the turret has the same facing the hull has and therefore no turret counter is needed (like in ASL).

For clarification I added the Turret counter in the screenshot above. It has the same facing the hull has.

By the way, it is not VASSAL. It is only a screenshot of my self-made Hexdraw-map with added vehicle-gif/png-files.

I think too that there has to be a Field-of-Fire for turrets. But I can't find it in the rules.

Also see 7.8.4 on p. 61: "If the firing vehicle is executing Overwatch Fire at a target located outside of the turret's Field-of-Fire, the modifier is -3." Here the question too is what is a turret's Field-of-Fire?

 
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Jim Day
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TheRealKid wrote:
Here the question too is what is a turret's Field-of-Fire?

60 degrees
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B. B.
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mongoose27 wrote:
TheRealKid wrote:
Here the question too is what is a turret's Field-of-Fire?

60 degrees

Thanks for the answer. But this would mean that the Abrams in the example above is not allowed to attack any of the Soviet units during the Direct Fire Step, because none of them is in 60° of the turret and adjusting the turret is only allowed during the Movement Phase and Adjustment Phase (according to 7.8.1) or during Overwatch Fire (according to 7.8.4).

If the vehicle would be a vehicle with a limited Fields-of-Fire (i. e. TT:120), then this vehicle would be able to attack BMP-2.

If the vehicle would be a vehicle with a limited Fields-of-Fire (i. e. TT:180), then this vehicle would be able to attack BMP-2 or BMP-3.

That would mean that vehicles with limited Fields-of-Fire are superior to a turreted vehicle without a limited Fields-of-Fire.

Is this intended? I think, it makes no sense.

EDIT: If You want, then please have a look at the following optional rules, I created. https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1629001/optional-rules-...
 
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B. B.
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I agree with You that according to the basic and advanced rules, turreted vehicles haven an all-round FoF.

But in the optional rules in 7.8 the possibility of adjusting turrets is clearly written: You can adjust a turret during the Movement Phase, the Adjustment Phase (see 7.8.1) and during the Overwatch Fire Step (see 7.8.4) only. There are no rules for adjusting the turret during the IF or DF Step just before the attack. So it is not allowed to do so (or has to be clarified by the designers).

So what does this mean? As I understand the official rules, according to the rules a turreted vehicle can attack a target within 360° even if the players use the rule 7.8. So, in my example above the Abrams could attack all Soviet units without the need to adjust the turret at all. Only during Overwatch Fire the Abrams has to adjust the turret to attack the enemies (according to 7.8.4). But hey ... this makes no sense at all.

So even if the players interpret the rules in 7.8 in the manner that a turreted vehicle is allowed to adjust the turret just before an attack during the IF or DF Step, then it is questionable why there is no Hit modifier for doing so. During the Overwatch Fire Step there is a different chance to hit a target when making an OW attack without an adjustment of the turret (Overwatch AP/GP Hit mod -1/-5) and when making an OW attack with an adjustment of the turret (Overwatch Adjust AP/GP Hit mod -3/-10). So the different chance to hit is -2/-5 (AP/GP). It seems that to adjust the turret and to attack within the same action is penalized by a Hit mod of -2/-5 (AP/GP).

So, if the players really allow to adjust the turret during the IF or DF Step and to attack after the adjusting of the turret, then they should use the same penalty (-2/-5) as when doing so during the Overwatch Fire. Otherwise it will be inconsistent.

But nowhere in the rules something like an "adjusting" mod is mentioned.

But even if the players include this "adjusting" penalty of -2/-5 (AP/GP), then the next inconsistency would be that i.e. a TT:120 vehicle would have no such penalty when attacking a target outside 60° but within 120°, whereas a turreted vehicle would be penalized by the mod, because he has to adjust his turret before the attack. This would mean that a vehicle with a limited Fields-of-Fire (in this example the TT:120 vehicle) would be superior to a vehicle without a limited Fields-of-Fire (the turreted vehicle), which makes no sense.

Because of all this I created my own interpretation of all this. See link above.
 
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Eduardo
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I don't think there is a problem here.

The situation you proposed in the OP will only happen due to a major oversight on the American player's side, as he could have turned the Turret at the Adjust Turret step, prior to the next turn, where he would fire at his intended target.

Since direct fire is the first phase (after air and indirect fire), turrets will be already positioned pointing at the desired target, defined the previous turn at the Adjust Turret Step, and tanks will stay where they are until Movement phase.

If you make the error of pointing the turret at a target at the Adjust step, and on the next turn decides to fire at a target outside your FOF, place an overwatch marker and hope for the target tank to move or fire.
I think this shows the tank crew losing time, having to change the target on the spot.
As well as I think the Adjust Turret step being in the last phase, and the direct firing phase being the first one, a good representation of the tank crew focusing on the target and implementing the order on the next turn.

Your proposed rule makes those compromises almost irrelevant, and I see them as strength.

I might be wrong, of course, as I'm no veteran of the system, and might be overlooking things.
Just wanted to point some things out.
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Jim Day
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Eduardo, perfect explanation.
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I still don't have the game. I have to play it a few times. Then I can form a better opinion.
 
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mongoose27 wrote:
TheRealKid wrote:
Here the question too is what is a turret's Field-of-Fire?

60 degrees


If the players want to use the Base Game Rules only, a turreted vehicle has a FoF of 360° (see 4.4.3.1.1). Is that wrong? Is the 60° You mentioned correct? Or will the 60° only be used when calculating the Hit mods for OW fire?

Either way, I think it would be a good idea to correct the rules. Because either the rule 4.4.3.1.1 is wrong or there has to be a clarification about the 60° in OW under 4.4.3.2.2.

It is awesome that You, as the designer, post in this forum. Thank You!
 
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