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Junta» Forums » Rules

Subject: Couple of questions (budget and coup) rss

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Peter Karis
Finland
Helsinki
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Just played the first game with 4 players, and a couple of questions arose:

What is the point of voting for or against the budget? If the budget is defeated, señor president just keeps all the money anyway, and practically the only difference is that the political situation is now unstable instead of stable? So what do you gain from voting against the budget?

In the coup, does it make any difference if you get declared a rebel during the rebel phase or not, since in the end of the coup you can switch sides anyway? So why not just take the "free" move in the rebel phase, even you want to support the president, then just simply shoot at the actual rebels and declare yourself pro-president in the end?

There seems to be very little reason to ever go through the actual voting process consisting of two rounds, since the influence cards can be seen by everyone and people seem to just automatically think of it as a single round vote. I can't see why there would ever be a second round needed, because people will just use all their votes during the first round and the outcome is thus fairly obvious?

thanks in advance
 
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Colby Brown
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Katy
Texas
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MacKaris wrote:

What is the point of voting for or against the budget? If the budget is defeated, señor president just keeps all the money anyway, and practically the only difference is that the political situation is now unstable instead of stable? So what do you gain from voting against the budget?

The political situation being unstable in the primary reason, especially if you think the Minister of Internal Security will force the budget. It allows anyone to coup, and it's easier to defeat the budget than to assassinate someone. Although you could also vote down the budget if you don't like how much money is being offered as a way of saying, "I didn't get any, and neither should anyone else".
Don't forget that the bank closes when the budget is defeated, so voting the budget down could be used as an end-of-game strategy to prevent someone from banking a lot of pesos.
MacKaris wrote:

In the coup, does it make any difference if you get declared a rebel during the rebel phase or not, since in the end of the coup you can switch sides anyway? So why not just take the "free" move in the rebel phase, even you want to support the president, then just simply shoot at the actual rebels and declare yourself pro-president in the end?

It's mostly about posturing and making a statement. Having rebels / loyalists is a good way to estimate how likely it is each side is to win and can be used to end the coup early if one side is dominating. So, no, there's not a huge rule difference between rebels and loyalists, EXCEPT if the Junta wins -- loyalists who vote pro-Junta are not members of the Junta and thus do not get a vote for the new president, and likewise the President may not send a loyalist to the firing squad if the pro-President side wins.
MacKaris wrote:

There seems to be very little reason to ever go through the actual voting process consisting of two rounds, since the influence cards can be seen by everyone and people seem to just automatically think of it as a single round vote. I can't see why there would ever be a second round needed, because people will just use all their votes during the first round and the outcome is thus fairly obvious?

Most of the time when I've played, people really hold back on their vote cards until the second round, either to bluff and then change the vote last minute or to hold on to their vote cards if their side is winning / losing by a landslide and wouldn't make a difference. Or, sometimes, you could be bribed to vote a certain way in the first round, and then throw down a large vote / influence card in the second round and backstab the briber. This does open up the voting to early recess, etc. which really messes up voting strategies!
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Peter Karis
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Okay thanks!

This thing though, I'm still not quite seeing a clear purpose or advantage of voting against the budget.

brobo wrote:

The political situation being unstable in the primary reason, especially if you think the Minister of Internal Security will force the budget. It allows anyone to coup, and it's easier to defeat the budget than to assassinate someone. Although you could also vote down the budget if you don't like how much money is being offered as a way of saying, "I didn't get any, and neither should anyone else".
Don't forget that the bank closes when the budget is defeated, so voting the budget down could be used as an end-of-game strategy to prevent someone from banking a lot of pesos.


It seemed that in our game at least, voting down the budget was very difficult and unlikely, since everyone else was generally happy that they're getting at least some money instead of nothing, and thus they will not vote against it. Unless of course someone has more votes and influence than everyone else combined and can thus decide all by themselves. And if I want to start a coup, I only need *one* of three things: unstable political situation, HQ location, or coup event card - correct? So basically if someone wants to start a coup, they can most of the time do it regardless of whether things are stable or unstable - unless of course using the optional rule where you need to be in the HQ *and* have an unstable political situation to start the coup. Then it would make maybe more sense?

The coup event cards btw are another thing that slightly confuses me - why are there cards which give you nothing but an "excuse" to start a coup, like the Street Festival and UN Condemnation, since you can always start a coup ANYWAY simply by choosing the HQ as your location?
 
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Simone Ferrari
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MacKaris wrote:
Okay thanks!



It seemed that in our game at least, voting down the budget was very difficult and unlikely, since everyone else was generally happy that they're getting at least some money instead of nothing, and thus they will not vote against it. Unless of course someone has more votes and influence than everyone else combined and can thus decide all by themselves. And if I want to start a coup, I only need *one* of three things: unstable political situation, HQ location, or coup event card - correct? So basically if someone wants to start a coup, they can most of the time do it regardless of whether things are stable or unstable - unless of course using the optional rule where you need to be in the HQ *and* have an unstable political situation to start the coup. Then it would make maybe more sense?

The coup event cards btw are another thing that slightly confuses me - why are there cards which give you nothing but an "excuse" to start a coup, like the Street Festival and UN Condemnation, since you can always start a coup ANYWAY simply by choosing the HQ as your location?


About the budget:
if the budget is rejected after the vote the bank is closed at least until after the coup phase.
Remember that a Prez who is playing well is making a lot of money and he'll go to the bank sooner or later .
If the other players are happy with that then either the Prez is too generous or they are too gullible.


About the coup cards and HQ:
yes you are right, you can start a coup just choosing the HQ, but what if you are assassinated because your location is so obvious?

With such cards you can go Banking (for example) and then start a Coup.

Edit: a typo
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Alcazar Alcazar
Germany
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If the budget passed or is rejected depends mostly on those who have political influence (influence cards or vote cards).
Those who dont, usually dont get much money, if at all and so rarely can vote it down.
As brobo said, it depends further on whether the minister enforces the budget or not. If he doesn't, the bank is closed for the rest of the turn.

A coup can be started by: * anyone (except el presidente) if there is a coup excuse (situation is instable) or * the player(s) who selected HQ as location.
To actually start a coup you can:
* play a card that adds new units (like students)
* a player who moves his assigned units
* if either the admiral or airforce general declare an attack on the palace

Note: Whatever side you're on during the coup you stay until the very end, you can't "go back". So if you were a rebel, you can't become loyal again.
 
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Simone Ferrari
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alcazarx wrote:

Note: Whatever side you're on during the coup you stay until the very end, you can't "go back". So if you were a rebel, you can't become loyal again.

That's not totally clear so I explain:

If you become rebel you stay rebel to the end of the coup.
If you are loyal you can become rebel attacking the palace guard and then you stay rebel.

I think you mean that the end-of-coup declaration has no meaning on your allegiance (i.e. you don't turn your office card to the other side).
 
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Alcazar Alcazar
Germany
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DocOne wrote:
I think you mean that the end-of-coup declaration has no meaning on your allegiance (i.e. you don't turn your office card to the other side).
yeah, meant that modest

That declaration is only to decide who owns the squares on board, due to the bit weird coup rules.
Anyway, we have a different (and maybe shorter) coup then the normal game.
 
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