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Subject: Airdropping onto a Bridge. rss

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Oscar Oliver
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Hi,

Bridges rules says :
Quote:
The moment any Allied unit enters a hex at one end of a Prepared Bridge (regular Movement, Exploitation Movement and Advance After Combat only, never during Road March or a retreat), the German player must decide to blow the bridge or not.


So, an airborne co landed just onto a bridge in the Air Drop phase.... would you agree that is not inside the "only" thus the German player cannot try to blow it up?

Eh.. this game was not playtested? I cannot believe nobody hit this situation before...
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Roger Hobden
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I would say the Germans cannot blow the bridge.
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Lee Forester
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This was addressed on CSW about 3 years ago. Air drop is part of this movement etc. and does allow the Germans a chance to blow the bridge.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.ee6b46d/16221
 
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Oscar Oliver
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CSW is just too confusing for me. 3 years ago a very clear glipse in rulebook was detected and no errata issued? LAF.

Anyways, who is the guy that answers? Mike Galandiuk : designer, developper , mmp answer guy or just a player?
 
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Martin Gallo
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I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...
 
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Martí Cabré

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martimer wrote:
I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...


The OP is not about a rule being criticized for being not close to reality. It has nothing to do with simulation.

The OP is about a specific rule that lists which actions do and which actions do not trigger the bridge blowing rule. And the action of dropping onto the bridge is not in either list. Hence the doubt.
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Martin Gallo
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marticabre wrote:
martimer wrote:
I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...


The OP is not about a rule being criticized for being not close to reality. It has nothing to do with simulation.

The OP is about a specific rule that lists which actions do and which actions do not trigger the bridge blowing rule. And the action of dropping onto the bridge is not in either list. Hence the doubt.
The funny part, to me, is that I was not even talking about the OP, I was referring to the linked "discussion" on CSW. I posted here after I went to that thread, read it for a bit, and came back here, got to thinking about it and posted. Heh!

By the way, I was a player in the referenced game.whistle
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Oscar Oliver
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martimer wrote:
I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...


Your advice is noted and appreciated. As is appreciated mr Lee Forester post about CSW thread, as is appreciated any point of view.

As I'm a old school wargamer, and I have some experience, I already know that SCS is not a complex simulation and is suitable system for fun fast games.

As I'm used to BGG and I know how it works, I first went thru the living rules, then thru the erratas published, then thru the rules forums, searching for a similar situation already asked. As I found none I posted, quoting the rule as written for easy reference.

I'm aware that there is no official aswer to doubts for SCS games, no official for this game in particular so I mostly wanted to know other players opinions before taking our decision.

I was surprised to see that the question arised in CSW 3 years ago and being a typtical glimpse and typical subject for an errata, something solved with two words in blue in the living rules, or just a sentence in the errata file, was not corrected.

Also, as I got lost in CSW, I cannot see if the guy that answers (providing no explanations to his answers, btw) is a player, a designer, mmp employee. In BGG I usually can see who is answering and what is his background so I can easyly know how valid his opinions are.

Thus... thanks for your advice. Now... I still have the same problem.
An airborne unit dropped atop a bridge. It's not covered (by omission) by the rules. My opinion is that the bridge cannot be blown : was taken by surprise. At least another player from Canada (I like Canada, but I love Quebec) thinks like me. One player on CSW thinks the opposite but says incorrectly that Air Drop is part of Movement when Air Drop is previous to any movement, including Road March, and is a separate phase.

In any case, no offense or disrespect intended to any of you. I think sometimes posts sound more harsh that should be.

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Oscar Oliver
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martimer wrote:
marticabre wrote:
martimer wrote:
I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...


The OP is not about a rule being criticized for being not close to reality. It has nothing to do with simulation.

The OP is about a specific rule that lists which actions do and which actions do not trigger the bridge blowing rule. And the action of dropping onto the bridge is not in either list. Hence the doubt.
The funny part, to me, is that I was not even talking about the OP, I was referring to the linked "discussion" on CSW. I posted here after I went to that thread, read it for a bit, and came back here, got to thinking about it and posted. Heh!

By the way, I was a player in the referenced game.whistle


ouch, we crossposted
 
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Joe Donnelly
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SCS design philosophy?
 
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Martin Gallo
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I think the philosophy is more about simplicity. The historicity is there but when the abstractions creep in to replace the details the possibility of a-historicity also creeps in. If you follow historical moves and actions the results tend to be historical, mostly. It is VERY easy to break the game with wild moves and conjectures.

I remember the "debate" over the question but not our decision. I THINK we said it was not movement so no blowing, but it has been too long ago to be sure.

Short version for me is that I will not play SCS with "rules layers types" because it just gets too silly. I know these games are works of fiction, but I lack the time and energy to feed some one else's ego.
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Martin Gallo
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I am not sure I am communicating very well today. I have no issues with anyone on this thread. For further "useless trivia" I played games with Steve yesterday. Good guy.
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Roger Hobden
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Hic Rhodus, hic saltus.

BGG is here, designers have to put their corrections here.

arrrh
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Martí Cabré

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martimer wrote:
marticabre wrote:
martimer wrote:
I "keep seeing" things like this on the various SCS forums - Guys, the SCS system is not a highly detailed simulation. If you want a highly detailed simulation, don't play SCS. The SCS is for fun, fast games.

There, venting complete. I now return to my cave secure in the knowledge that my advice will be ignored...


The OP is not about a rule being criticized for being not close to reality. It has nothing to do with simulation.

The OP is about a specific rule that lists which actions do and which actions do not trigger the bridge blowing rule. And the action of dropping onto the bridge is not in either list. Hence the doubt.
The funny part, to me, is that I was not even talking about the OP, I was referring to the linked "discussion" on CSW. I posted here after I went to that thread, read it for a bit, and came back here, got to thinking about it and posted. Heh!

By the way, I was a player in the referenced game.whistle


Oh, excuse me then for chiming in. I thought you were talking about the OP.

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Martin Gallo
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marticabre wrote:
Oh, excuse me then for chiming in. I thought you were talking about the OP.
No problem. Like I said, I am not communicating well today. Sorry for the mis-representation.
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Lehr
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Teofilus wrote:
Hi,

Bridges rules says :
Quote:
The moment any Allied unit enters a hex at one end of a Prepared Bridge (regular Movement, Exploitation Movement and Advance After Combat only, never during Road March or a retreat), the German player must decide to blow the bridge or not.


So, an airborne co landed just onto a bridge in the Air Drop phase.... would you agree that is not inside the "only" thus the German player cannot try to blow it up?

Eh.. this game was not playtested? I cannot believe nobody hit this situation before...


I think this sentence allows the German player to blow the bridge:

"The German player must also decide to blow a bridge at the start of the Allied Movement Phase if there is an Allied unit on or at one end of a Prepared Bridge."
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Oscar Oliver
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That's the good one.

Looking deeply into the question...
By rule 1.12 Bridges are not captured in Road March as I tought initially :
Quote:
Allied Road Marching units cannot “test” bridges to see if they blow. To do so, the unit must be moving in regular or Exploitation movement. Allied Road Marching units cannot cross a Prepared Bridge.


My initial though was based on the fact that Bridge Blowing rule seemed to allow capture without checking in Road March phase, so Air Drop seemed a leftover in the rule. Now I think I was wrong.

The Bridge Rule can be clearer but it seems to me now that neither Road March nor Air Drop does not avoid checking the bridge, but in both cases the roll is done at start of movement phase.

This situation is possible : unit drops onto bridge, road march out of bridge, bridge cannot be checked.
 
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Lehr
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Teofilus wrote:
That's the good one.

Looking deeply into the question...
By rule 1.12 Bridges are not captured in Road March as I tought initially :
Quote:
Allied Road Marching units cannot “test” bridges to see if they blow. To do so, the unit must be moving in regular or Exploitation movement. Allied Road Marching units cannot cross a Prepared Bridge.


My initial though was based on the fact that Bridge Blowing rule seemed to allow capture without checking in Road March phase, so Air Drop seemed a leftover in the rule. Now I think I was wrong.

The Bridge Rule can be clearer but it seems to me now that neither Road March nor Air Drop does not avoid checking the bridge, but in both cases the roll is done at start of movement phase.

This situation is possible : unit drops onto bridge, road march out of bridge, bridge cannot be checked.


The Allied unit may only road march to the end of the bridge, so the German player will still have a chance to blow the bridge.

"1.12b Procedure. Move any distance along a road (of either type, but not Railroad). The unit must stop when:

b) The unit enters any hex adjacent to a Sea Line crossed by the road
it is using."


...so this situation is also covered....but I agree that the rule could probably be more simply written.
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