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Subject: Failed raid and enmity rss

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Joe fakelastnameson
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When attempting a raid, if I roll no successes or my flagship is sunk, do I still place enmity on the intended target?

Place enmity is listed after collect plunder in the steps of a raid. If there's no plunder does the raid stop? Or do I skip that step and still place enmity?
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JR Honeycutt
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If your raid is unsuccessful (no successes or your ship sinks) then nothing else happens... no enmity, no plunder, nothing.
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Becq Starforged
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And if you prefer a written rule, you can also reference the following:
SeaFall, p11 wrote:
Enmity tokens are placed on a site when that site is successfully raided (or otherwise mistreated)


With regards to the "otherwise mistreated", I recall Rob talking about exploration options in which you attack/rob the natives. My guess is that the "otherwise mistreated" refers to that.

However, this does bring up a follow-up question: What happens if you "succeed" at raiding a province (ie, you have 1+ successes and don't sink) but don't plunder (for example, the target has upgraded fields, so there is no 1-success plunder option). In that case, I assume you get nothing, but do you still place enmity, and if so, where? Do you still get glory? And if you roll too few successes to plunder the thing you really wanted, can you choose not to plunder something with a lower value (so that you can save enmity tokens, perhaps?
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JR Honeycutt
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In that case you would be successful, so you would get the glory. No plunder means you don't place enmity. Yes, you're allowed to decide not to place any tokens and take no plunder (you've basically wasted a turn).
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Becq Starforged
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jayahre wrote:
In that case you would be successful, so you would get the glory. No plunder means you don't place enmity. Yes, you're allowed to decide not to place any tokens and take no plunder (you've basically wasted a turn).

Am I safe to assume this ruling would apply to island raids, too?

The reason I ask, by the way, is that there might be cases where doing something like this might not be wasteful at all. For example, if your opponent is about to win, it might be worthwhile to stage a province raid to delay his win (or possibly even pull off a win yourself). But if you miss the number you need to prevent the win (perhaps by taking a treasure or stealing enough from the treasury to keep them from buying a treasure), you might be grabbing gold or goods that don't help you ... so why give your opponent free enmity stickers for no benefit?

Similarly, there might be cases where you just need glory, and the easiest source is an island raid. If you don't need the plunder, it might be advantageous to do the raid, but leave the plunder behind -- getting you a glory (or two, if you manage to trigger the Renowned Soldier) without any enmity cost.
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Joe fakelastnameson
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Those are all good points. Can you raid an island site for glory, but claim no plunder and place no enmity?

If you know an opponent is going to win on his turn, you might want to raid an island site for the campaign glory because it's relatively easy to do. The goods you could acquire would have no game effect that close to the end, so it's better to not claim them and avoid the permanent enmity on the island.

If that's allowed, I could see players opting for that in the final turns of the game pretty often.


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TJ
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Pg 19 under "Island Sites":

Quote:
On islands, the number of successes you rolled does not matter. In all cases, at least 1 success results in plundering the site and placing 1 enmity token on the site after a successful raid.
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Clinton Rice
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Per page 11, it clearly states enmity is placed on a site when that site has been successfully raided (or otherwise mistreated), so I would argue that while you can choose not to plunder, you are voluntarily treating it as a failed raid and gaining no glory. The logic is simple.

Enmity is placed if the raid is successful. Ergo, no enmity placed means no success. They go hand in hand. Nowhere does it say place enmity only if you take plunder.
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AJ Harris
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KoalaXav wrote:
Per page 11, it clearly states enmity is placed on a site when that site has been successfully raided (or otherwise mistreated), so I would argue that while you can choose not to plunder, you are voluntarily treating it as a failed raid and gaining no glory. The logic is simple.

Enmity is placed if the raid is successful. Ergo, no enmity placed means no success. They go hand in hand. Nowhere does it say place enmity only if you take plunder.


I'm more inclined to believe this than to imagine I can raid for Glory but choose not to Plunder (and therefor give Enmity).
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Mark Rees
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jayahre wrote:
If your raid is unsuccessful (no successes or your ship sinks) then nothing else happens... no enmity, no plunder, nothing.


Really? I raid a 6 site, but only have 3 successes. So my flagship sinks. It is the only ship at that island. So i get no goods, the ship sinks, but I don't place emnity? Seems to me that the raid was successful (3 success rolls), but the ship sank so i can't take the goods. I would think that i still place emnity on that site.
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j n
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gpmark wrote:
jayahre wrote:
If your raid is unsuccessful (no successes or your ship sinks) then nothing else happens... no enmity, no plunder, nothing.


Really? I raid a 6 site, but only have 3 successes. So my flagship sinks. It is the only ship at that island. So i get no goods, the ship sinks, but I don't place emnity? Seems to me that the raid was successful (3 success rolls), but the ship sank so i can't take the goods. I would think that i still place emnity on that site.


The rules are very clear that if your ship sinks then your raid is NOT considered successful so you do not place enmity.
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Becq Starforged
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KoalaXav wrote:
Per page 11, it clearly states enmity is placed on a site when that site has been successfully raided (or otherwise mistreated), so I would argue that while you can choose not to plunder, you are voluntarily treating it as a failed raid and gaining no glory. The logic is simple.

Enmity is placed if the raid is successful. Ergo, no enmity placed means no success. They go hand in hand. Nowhere does it say place enmity only if you take plunder.

I disagree that it's so clear-cut. Consider the following:
1) Enmity is linked to plunder, not success. "(p19) Place enmity tokens equal to the plunder value on the site." Note that this has nothing to do with number of successes rolled: if you roll 6 success, you can plunder a value 5 site and place 5 enmity, or plunder a value 1 site and place 1 enmity.
2) Plunder is optional. "(p19) After a successful raid against a province, you may plunder one site on the province board." In general, "may" implies that you have a choice not to do the thing in question.
3) Success is determined by ship survival and die roll, not choice of plunder. "(p10) If you did not roll a single success, or if your ship sank as a result of taking damage, the endeavor is a failure and your turn ends immediately. Otherwise, you succeed (even if you took damage)." See also the quote in #2 that makes the choice of plunder a consequence of success, not a cause of success.
4) Glory is based only on success. "(p10) Gain 1 glory for a successful endeavor, and your turn continues."

So, based on the sections quoted above, If you roll at least one success and don't sink, you succeed and gain a glory, then choose a plunder option (or decide not to plunder). If you plunder, you place enmity based on the plunder you chose (and can't plunder if you can't place the enmity).

The quote you mentioned does seem to indicate otherwise. However also consider JR's post, just a few posts above yours. What the game design team states is often considered to carry some weight, and in the context of the thread, agrees with and clarifies the above points, and resolves the apparent contradiction. By the way, I could easily see it being resolved the other way -- your interpretation is logical, too.
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Clinton Rice
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Becq wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
Per page 11, it clearly states enmity is placed on a site when that site has been successfully raided (or otherwise mistreated), so I would argue that while you can choose not to plunder, you are voluntarily treating it as a failed raid and gaining no glory. The logic is simple.

Enmity is placed if the raid is successful. Ergo, no enmity placed means no success. They go hand in hand. Nowhere does it say place enmity only if you take plunder.

I disagree that it's so clear-cut. Consider the following:
1) Enmity is linked to plunder, not success. "(p19) Place enmity tokens equal to the plunder value on the site." Note that this has nothing to do with number of successes rolled: if you roll 6 success, you can plunder a value 5 site and place 5 enmity, or plunder a value 1 site and place 1 enmity.
2) Plunder is optional. "(p19) After a successful raid against a province, you may plunder one site on the province board." In general, "may" implies that you have a choice not to do the thing in question.
3) Success is determined by ship survival and die roll, not choice of plunder. "(p10) If you did not roll a single success, or if your ship sank as a result of taking damage, the endeavor is a failure and your turn ends immediately. Otherwise, you succeed (even if you took damage)." See also the quote in #2 that makes the choice of plunder a consequence of success, not a cause of success.
4) Glory is based only on success. "(p10) Gain 1 glory for a successful endeavor, and your turn continues."

So, based on the sections quoted above, If you roll at least one success and don't sink, you succeed and gain a glory, then choose a plunder option (or decide not to plunder). If you plunder, you place enmity based on the plunder you chose (and can't plunder if you can't place the enmity).

The quote you mentioned does seem to indicate otherwise. However also consider JR's post, just a few posts above yours. What the game design team states is often considered to carry some weight, and in the context of the thread, agrees with and clarifies the above points, and resolves the apparent contradiction. By the way, I could easily see it being resolved the other way -- your interpretation is logical, too.


I can't say I'm really a fan then of the official interpretation. It feels too much like taking advantage of a loophole.
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Patrick Brennan
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There were aspects of the above that were still unclear to me, so I decided to ask the designer, Rob Daviau, directly, and I include his responses below. Note that this answer (which is the one I'd suggest we were all hoping for) differs from the publisher's original answer, and I'd suggest that the FAQ needs to be updated with this answer instead.

PBrennan wrote:
If you raid a province and roll just 1 success, but everything on the province board requires 2 successes or more to plunder, what happens? The answer given is that you get 1 glory for a successful raid but don’t get to plunder, therefore no enmity goes out. Correct so far?


Rob: Let's say that you gain neither glory nor plunder. That the definition of a successful raid requires plunder. This is a little loophole that [I'd like to close].

(PB Note: This confirms that a successful raid on an island must result in plunder and enmity as well, if there were any remaining question.)

PBrennan wrote:
The further question (to which there seems to be no official answer yet) is, because the province site rules say “after a successful raid, you may plunder one site on the province board”, can you choose not to plunder even if you’ve rolled enough successes to plunder an eligible province site, in order to gain glory without placing enmity? If so, is it a correctly intentioned strategy for someone to build up a raiding capability and sit there and raid a province each turn without repercussions (other than potential ship damage, which you're one sail away from fixing and coming back) and collecting taxes with your other action, repeat ad nauseum to accrue glory each turn?


Rob: No! This would create the raid engine you described, which seems unthematic and not fun.
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Becq Starforged
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Could you forward me Rob's emails? My preference is to provide links to designer's posts in the FAQ, but a direct quote may have to do.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Done.
 
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Benjamin Wolf
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PBrennan wrote:
PBrennan wrote:
If you raid a province and roll just 1 success, but everything on the province board requires 2 successes or more to plunder, what happens? The answer given is that you get 1 glory for a successful raid but don’t get to plunder, therefore no enmity goes out. Correct so far?


Rob: Let's say that you gain neither glory nor plunder. That the definition of a successful raid requires plunder. This is a little loophole that [I'd like to close].

(PB Note: This confirms that a successful raid on an island must result in plunder and enmity as well, if there were any remaining question.)


This and JR's comment and the rest of this thread unfortunately still don't clarify the island plunder case enough for the starting objective Darkness Stirs (successfully Raid an island site of 6). The only sites available were ship upgrade plunder that was not available and therefore could not be taken. Should we consider plunder to include the glory and relevant milestones (and their glory), and thus I do place an enmity token? Or should an illegal plunder reward render me unable to gain the glory from a successful raid?

That is, which is correct?
* If you cannot or choose not to take plunder, the raid is not a success. Gain no glory and place no enmity.
* You can choose to not take plunder, in which case you give no enmity, but you still gain glory and milestones. [This is most like the Raid engine Rob wants to avoid.]
* At an island site, you cannot choose to not take plunder. If the plunder has no valid options, you gain nothing but the glory and milestones from a successful raid.

The last option is how my group will have to play out at least this case, since it's already been done.
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J Kaemmer
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jokeserver wrote:
PBrennan wrote:
PBrennan wrote:
If you raid a province and roll just 1 success, but everything on the province board requires 2 successes or more to plunder, what happens? The answer given is that you get 1 glory for a successful raid but don’t get to plunder, therefore no enmity goes out. Correct so far?


Rob: Let's say that you gain neither glory nor plunder. That the definition of a successful raid requires plunder. This is a little loophole that [I'd like to close].

(PB Note: This confirms that a successful raid on an island must result in plunder and enmity as well, if there were any remaining question.)


This and JR's comment and the rest of this thread unfortunately still don't clarify the island plunder case enough for the starting objective Darkness Stirs (successfully Raid an island site of 6). The only sites available were ship upgrade plunder that was not available and therefore could not be taken. Should we consider plunder to include the glory and relevant milestones (and their glory), and thus I do place an enmity token? Or should an illegal plunder reward render me unable to gain the glory from a successful raid?

That is, which is correct?
* If you cannot or choose not to take plunder, the raid is not a success. Gain no glory and place no enmity.
* You can choose to not take plunder, in which case you give no enmity, but you still gain glory and milestones. [This is most like the Raid engine Rob wants to avoid.]
* At an island site, you cannot choose to not take plunder. If the plunder has no valid options, you gain nothing but the glory and milestones from a successful raid.

The last option is how my group will have to play out at least this case, since it's already been done.


For your third complaint all island raids have an option. It says so in the book. If you cannor take a upgrade take 10 gold. If you can't take a good, take 3 (6?) Gold. Gold is unlimited. Ergo- 3rd part is not an issue.

2nd one is covered by rob's ruling that plunder is required for glory.

1st part is just rules as weitten.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
For your third complaint all island raids have an option. It says so in the book. If you cannot take a upgrade take 10 gold. If you can't take a good, take 3 (6?) Gold. Gold is unlimited. Ergo- 3rd part is not an issue.


Uhh, what?

SeaFall Rule Book, Page 19, Plunder, Good wrote:
If aren’t any of the matching good in the supply, the site cannot be raided.
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j n
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iswearihaveajob wrote:

For your third complaint all island raids have an option. It says so in the book. If you cannor take a upgrade take 10 gold. If you can't take a good, take 3 (6?) Gold.


The Captain's Booke front flap states that this is how you handle Booke entries that would give you something you can't take, but that is not how raids work.

Raids explicitly cannot be attempted against good sites and markets if there are no matching goods in the supply. The rules are unfortunately *not* explicit about raiding docks when no valid upgrades are in the supply, but that is how I would rule (the raid may not even be attempted) based on the goods rules.

In the case of that specific milestone, I would not try to reverse anything if you've already played it - that way lies madness. Just make a decision going about how to rule it in future games and stick with it.
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J Kaemmer
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Dexter345 wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
For your third complaint all island raids have an option. It says so in the book. If you cannot take a upgrade take 10 gold. If you can't take a good, take 3 (6?) Gold. Gold is unlimited. Ergo- 3rd part is not an issue.


Uhh, what?

SeaFall Rule Book, Page 19, Plunder, Good wrote:
If aren’t any of the matching good in the supply, the site cannot be raided.


touche, I misremembered. Nonetheless, jokeserver's confusion is pretty well covered. There's no case in which you can get glory/milestones without plunder because you need to have available plunder (not that there's always a plunder option like I had originally said. My bad) and you need plunder for it to be a success.
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Charles Waterman
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Becq wrote:
Could you forward me Rob's emails? My preference is to provide links to designer's posts in the FAQ, but a direct quote may have to do.


Hi Becq! You're doing a great job with the Captain's Log FAQ. If you did get these emails, though, could you please update this section of the Captain's Log? As it stands now, there's kind of an unpleasant silence over there about this issue, and it'd be reassuring to see Rob Daviau's quote over there if he *did* indicate that plunder was a condition for glory.

It'd also be nice to know if Mr. Daviau indicated whether his intention is that A) raiding a port on an island with no available upgrades of that color should be impossible in the same way as raiding a site with no available goods of that color, or B) it would only be possible in order to complete a milestone and then would yield 10 gold in the same way as a Captain's Booke entry would yield.
 
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Becq Starforged
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Hm. I thought that one had gotten in already.

That said, when he says "a successful raid requires plunder", my take is that this means only that in order for the raid to be successful (and award glory) you must choose an available plunder option, and place the corresponding enmity. It's ok to gain nothing, so long as you "plundered". If don't or can't choose a plunder option, then your raid fails and you gain no glory.

So let's say you raid a province that has already upgraded its fields, and you roll one success. In this case, there are no plunder options available to you, so you have failed the raid. But if you had rolled three successes, you could choose to plunder the warehouse or council room, even if they were empty. You wouldn't actually gain anything, and you'd still have to place three enmity, but you would have plundered, so you gain the glory as a result. Similarly, you can plunder a dock even when there are no upgrades to take as plunder, and so long as you get the required success and place enmity, you succeed and gain glory.

Note that the above involves some extrapolation on my part. But it makes sense (to me, at least) in the context of the rules and Rob's clarification.

(Edit: reworded for clarity.)
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Oh, uh, that's not how I interpreted the remarks at all. It makes a huge difference when it comes to

(Box 4 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
conquering colonies, because you could declare the raid, not get enough successes to conquer the colony, be forced to plunder a field, then have enmity there that makes it harder for you to try to take it on a future turn.


The way I had understood it was you could choose not to take plunder, but what follows from that is you gain no glory for the endeavor and leave no enmity. It sounds especially bad if you would be forced to leave enmity on an empty warehouse just because you didn't get enough successes to take what you actually wanted.

EDIT: Or maybe I've misunderstood your post just now, but when you say "you must choose to plunder" is there an implied "if you want the raid to be considered successful"?
 
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Becq Starforged
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The last option, the "must" was in the context of Rob's comments about the requirements of a successful raid. I've reworded for clarity; does it help?
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