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Subject: Aggressive denial is worth more than tier 3 love-Discuss rss

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Gareth Roberts
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Just playing an automa game. I'm Patriotic Norway vs Crimea. I'm ahead in stars and want to close the game out ASAP.

I'm 2 turns from the end.I just produced, next time i produce i can max workers to get my final star. I'm also 2 pop below top tier popularity. Whats better? Trade for 2 pop or get aggressive.

Well earlier in the game i'd attacked my tunnel network space with 3 Mechs forcing the enemy Mech back to the mat. So i have 3 combat units on a tunnel space. (Controlling a tunnel network space is amazingly important for opportunity generation in this game.)

Now lets look at the maths of what i can do here. we'll assume I'm on 0 points to start to keep the sums clear

Trade for love +2 love (ASSUMING its upgraded) tier 3 love achieved

-1 point for trade cost
+ 6 points for 6 stars
+7 points for my 7 lands
(I had 1 good in this example so +0 for my goods)

So top tier love gained me + 12

BUT as we'l see, it also left my opponent with 2 controlled tiles so we need to -6 from that score to show the true swing

So top tier love got me +6. (I'm not going to count potential additions to goods produced on the final turn here and I'm going to assume i didn't capture any goods in the move calc)

Move action

Move 1- So i picked a worker up in a mech and plonked the worker down on 1 tile and the mech on another + 6 points for 2 claimed tiles
Move 2- Tunnel jump push 1 enemy worker home gain 1 tile + 3 (-1 pop)
Move 3- Tunnel jump push 1 enemy worker home gain 1 tile + 3 (-1 pop) Still comfortably in mid tier here.

So thats + 12

Wait and i also denied my oponent 2 tiles so that swings me 6 more points! 18 points in total

Tier 3 love total = +6 swing
Aggressive move total + 18 swing

So aggression in this instance was worth 12 more points than love.

-and then guess what? the automa attacked me the next turn and lost the battle ending the game with my second combat star so i never even got that final production!


Other notes-

What if they attacked me and pushed me off one of the territories?
Answer- I was Norway and i made sure to only attack tiles adjacent to lakes, so i would still have claimed more tiles by retreating onto lakes. I just wouldn't have denied them so many tiles.

Keep in mind i calculated the tier 3 bonus with an assumption of claiming all 6 stars. This is not necessarily going to be the case. So the scores could have been lower.

If that last produce had happned i might have been able to produce, although i might have also captured goods with the attack moves. I just left goods out of this as i started this scenario with 1.


Anyway what are your thoughts? I kind of feel like a good in your face attack in the end game is worth more than tier 3 love.


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Chris Laudermilk
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I think it depends on the tactical situation. It's kind of apropos that you post this now as I used this exact strategy in my game session this weekend.

I was playing Nordic and my son was Rusviet while two newer players were Saxony and Crimea. I used some aggressive moves to force several Rusviet units back to home base; I took the popularity hit, which delayed me getting into tier 3. It was worth it for two reasons: 1) he ended up with a mech and three workers cooling their heels on home base at game end, and 2) I ended up able to build two structures essentially free (kicked him off with 2 lumber each time--which happened to be my upgraded cost. devil). In the end I think those couple of moves are a large part of Rusviet coming in 4th that game. He ended up controlling the contested hex, but I forced him to choose between moving the pack of units back on the board or doing something else useful where he could have been moving those 4-5 units around & gaining many VPs in controlled territories, or fighting me over the factory. i need to write up the session report before the details become fuzzier, it was an interesting game.

Oh, one calculation I think you may have wrong: I don't believe lakes count as controlled territories even for the Nords or Polanians with their abilities to move on them active.
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Trevor Schadt
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claudermilk wrote:
Oh, one calculation I think you may have wrong: I don't believe lakes count as controlled territories even for the Nords or Polanians with their abilities to move on them active.
I believe you're incorrect on that. The rules state, under both Polania's Submerge ability and Nordic's "Seaworthy" ability, that "lakes are territories." There's nothing in the FAQ, though I seem to recall another thread on here where it was stated that lakes count as controlled territories for end-game scoring.
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Danwarr
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claudermilk wrote:

Oh, one calculation I think you may have wrong: I don't believe lakes count as controlled territories even for the Nords or Polanians with their abilities to move on them active.


Page 29 of the Rule book:

Quote:
Scoring Categories
Every Territory Controlled: Gains coins for every territory you control (INCLUDING LAKES).
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Trevor Schadt
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Danwarr wrote:
Page 29 of the Rule book:

Quote:
Scoring Categories
Every Territory Controlled: Gains coins for every territory you control (INCLUDING LAKES).
Thanks Danwarr! I missed that when I skimmed over it.
 
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Chris Laudermilk
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blush I stand corrected. I would have sworn I
d read the opposite somewhere, but my memory is obviously faulty.
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Ian Liddle
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Leaving out produced goods for tier 3 popularity seems like a substantial omission: 6 goods are worth 9 points, and can be had at the cost of a single power if you're using the Mill.

Granted, that's not enough to close the gap between the aggressive move's advantage... I find this interesting, as a 2 player game guarantees that a point denied = point gained, but the more players, the murkier it can get as who's the biggest threat. So the Euro option (or negotiating for mercenary compensation from other players) is probably better in higher player count games, but you're more likely to scuffle due to lack of space, whereas in the lower player counts, point denial is guaranteed income.
 
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M Van Der Werf
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razordaze wrote:
Leaving out produced goods for tier 3 popularity seems like a substantial omission: 6 goods are worth 9 points, and can be had at the cost of a single power if you're using the Mill.

Granted, that's not enough to close the gap between the aggressive move's advantage... I find this interesting, as a 2 player game guarantees that a point denied = point gained, but the more players, the murkier it can get as who's the biggest threat. So the Euro option (or negotiating for mercenary compensation from other players) is probably better in higher player count games, but you're more likely to scuffle due to lack of space, whereas in the lower player counts, point denial is guaranteed income.


This is almost always the case with area control games. In 2p direct confrontation is good because you are taking away from your only opponent, but in high player counts area is restrited so there is a lot of scuffling. In between you get the most passive games.

2p tends to be most cutthroat, followed by max player count and in between it's passive. 2p can often become an almost completely different game though, sometimes for good (i think smallworld 2p is surprisingly good for example) but often for the worse. Scythe 2p is a bit weird and a bad game imo with lot of faction setups, some faction can (practically) not get onto another faction's home turf for example. And factions like Polania (because of encounters) and Crimea (because of their special move mech) just have a tendency to avoid any combat and have their leader walking around the map picking up encounters.
 
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