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Subject: "Fences: A Brexit Diary" rss

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G Rowls
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partialy until she started going on about Corbyn - she is exactly the sort of 'London' set the rest of the party memebers want gone from the Labour party . She is a red tory.

Why vote tory lite when you can have the the real thing? The papers over here are full of the middle class whinging they cant aford to send their kids to 'public' (private schools) any more because the fees work out around 130k in total. Or they can't manage on salaries of 60k (average is considered around 30k less outside the South East).

 
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Boaty McBoatface
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growlley wrote:
partialy until she started going on about Corbyn - she is exactly the sort of 'London' set the rest of the party memebers want gone from the Labour party . She is a red tory.

Why vote tory lite when you can have the the real thing? The papers over here are full of the middle class whinging they cant aford to send their kids to 'public' (private schools) any more because the fees work out around 130k in total. Or they can't manage on salaries of 60k (average is considered around 30k less outside the South East).

Sadly I agree with much of what she says. The problem is that the middle class intellectual elite did ignore the poor, and Brexit reflects a rejection of their world view.

Yes I think this also doers reflect what I have read about America, and the failure of the capitalist system. It needs to be aspirational, people need to think they have a chance to succeed and not just be told how hard it is for people living on Knightbridge.
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David Dearlove
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growlley wrote:
partialy until she started going on about Corbyn - she is exactly the sort of 'London' set the rest of the party memebers want gone from the Labour party . She is a red tory.

Why vote tory lite when you can have the the real thing? The papers over here are full of the middle class whinging they cant aford to send their kids to 'public' (private schools) any more because the fees work out around 130k in total. Or they can't manage on salaries of 60k (average is considered around 30k less outside the South East).


As soon as someone says Red Tory, I know exactly what their politics are.
Corbyn's followers ideological purity will lead to at least 10 more years in the wilderness of Tory government. Corbyn is ineffectual and unelectable.
Calling people who acknowledge that and realise that the aim of politics is to govern and to govern you have to be elected "Red Tories" is just immature. Good luck with a lovely left wing program and the opposition benches.
 
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G Rowls
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actually you have no idea what my politics are . The problem is those 'red' tories arent centralists or moderates at all they are close in idea to what the americans term neoliberal conservatives and we already have a party that does that better because they believe in it and not just for thate sake of their own politicial skins.

There is no 'centre' in British politics everything is moving to the extreme right. This is bad for democracy and leads to the large scale disenfrancisement mentioned in the article.

What does it matter to me if if I have a choice between a genuine ultra conservative right wing government and one that claims to be only slightly less right but will carry out the same policies just to win power.

Either way I will get that 10 years - so may as well use it to build a genuine alternative with a genuinely different voice. The choice then comes down to the voters if after 10 years of authoritarian austerity they have had enough then that alternative voice will be heard and win , if the not then the voters will get the goverment they deserved after all they chose it.

"that the aim of politics is to govern and to govern" ah power for powers sake. Well I may be immature as I still belive in good governance for the benefit of the people. When the governement refuses to address the needs of significant percentage of its cizitens one of two things happen the population knuckles down and take it or violent change comes.
 
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David Dearlove
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growlley wrote:
actually you have no idea what my politics are . The problem is those 'red' tories arent centralists or moderates at all they are close in idea to what the americans term neoliberal conservatives and we already have a party that does that better because they believe in it and not just for thate sake of their own politicial skins.

There is no 'centre' in British politics everything is moving to the extreme right. This is bad for democracy and leads to the large scale disenfrancisement mentioned in the article.

What does it matter to me if if I have a choice between a genuine ultra conservative right wing government and one that claims to be only slightly less right but will carry out the same policies just to win power.

Either way I will get that 10 years - so may as well use it to build a genuine alternative with a genuinely different voice. The choice then comes down to the voters if after 10 years of authoritarian austerity they have had enough then that alternative voice will be heard and win , if the not then the voters will get the goverment they deserved after all they chose it.

"that the aim of politics is to govern and to govern" ah power for powers sake. Well I may be immature as I still belive in good governance for the benefit of the people. When the governement refuses to address the needs of significant percentage of its cizitens one of two things happen the population knuckles down and take it or violent change comes.

There are plenty of centrists who oppose the Tories. Labelling people who disagree with your position, which is completely clear, as Red Tories, is just immature. I did not say power for it's own sake. I said that you cannot achieve anything sitting on benches muttering about how you would do better if only the British people could be convinced of the obvious rightness of your position. There is absolutely no appetite for left wing politics of the sort you clearly approve of amongst the British public outside Scotland and the SNP has all of those.
Your strategy of allowing the Conservative party untrammelled power for a couple of elections and then hoping that the people will then vote for you out of despair is pathetic.
Corbyn just does not oppose. The Tories have a divided party and a small majority and he did fuck all for 6 months. His PMQs were pathetic.
Is it any wonder that the PLP wants a leader that can win elections?
 
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G Rowls
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So wtf am I supposed to do about it sell out my own personal beliefs and intergrity just to allow some one to govern who will espouse anything as long as it gives them power and still do nothing for me?

If the majority of the voters don't want to vote for a left wing party that is their right and choice doesn't mean people who lean to the left shouldn't be allowed a voice or the party they want. That is the task not to convince the voters the policies are 'righteous' or ideologically pure but that whats on offer will benefit them, seems to me you can have any sweet you like as long as it is a blue sweet isn't help full when you either don't like blue sweets or there is already a better blue sweet on offer.

There isn't likely to be an election for four years, even with a small majority no way will the current conservative party vote itself out of office.

All the plp had to do was bide its time but they decided they knew better than the majority of the members who did vote for Corybn as leader and try a coup d'etat and worse bollox it up completely.

And who does that plp think will be the boots on the ground doing the ground work to get them elected it won't be me and it certainly wont be you?

The party doesn't belong to the plp but the members and the plp should answer to the members, if they dont want to be a labour party MP then they should either resign their membership and go independent or cross the floor. I'm not calling for them to resign because the voters elected them to be their mp and they can affirm or revoke that choice at the next election.
 
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Mutton Chops
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growlley wrote:
So wtf am I supposed to do about it sell out my own personal beliefs and intergrity just to allow some one to govern who will espouse anything as long as it gives them power and still do nothing for me?

If the majority of the voters don't want to vote for a left wing party that is their right and choice doesn't mean people who lean to the left shouldn't be allowed a voice or the party they want. That is the task not to convince the voters the policies are 'righteous' or ideologically pure but that whats on offer will benefit them, seems to me you can have any sweet you like as long as it is a blue sweet isn't help full when you either don't like blue sweets or there is already a better blue sweet on offer.

There isn't likely to be an election for four years, even with a small majority no way will the current conservative party vote itself out of office.

All the plp had to do was bide its time but they decided they knew better than the majority of the members who did vote for Corybn as leader and try a coup d'etat and worse bollox it up completely.

And who does that plp think will be the boots on the ground doing the ground work to get them elected it won't be me and it certainly wont be you?

The party doesn't belong to the plp but the members and the plp should answer to the members, if they dont want to be a labour party MP then they should either resign their membership and go independent or cross the floor. I'm not calling for them to resign because the voters elected them to be their mp and they can affirm or revoke that choice at the next election.


As I would see it, the most dangerous possible outcome of a Corbyn victory in the upcoming election, for Labour as a movement per se, is that the Blairite/centrist MPs could split off from the Labour party to form a separate centrist party (it happened before, in 1981, after all). That may result in a number of problematic consequences: first, it would simply split the left-wing vote, eroding majorities, particularly in key marginals; secondly, it would open the Labour party to portrayal by its enemies as a purist hard-left organisation, a very worrying image to have in the minds of the key voting demographics; thirdly, it might present the more centrist trades unions with an opportunity to shift their funding/allegiances.
 
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David Dearlove
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growlley wrote:
So wtf am I supposed to do about it sell out my own personal beliefs and intergrity just to allow some one to govern who will espouse anything as long as it gives them power and still do nothing for me?

If the majority of the voters don't want to vote for a left wing party that is their right and choice doesn't mean people who lean to the left shouldn't be allowed a voice or the party they want. That is the task not to convince the voters the policies are 'righteous' or ideologically pure but that whats on offer will benefit them, seems to me you can have any sweet you like as long as it is a blue sweet isn't help full when you either don't like blue sweets or there is already a better blue sweet on offer.

There isn't likely to be an election for four years, even with a small majority no way will the current conservative party vote itself out of office.

All the plp had to do was bide its time but they decided they knew better than the majority of the members who did vote for Corybn as leader and try a coup d'etat and worse bollox it up completely.

And who does that plp think will be the boots on the ground doing the ground work to get them elected it won't be me and it certainly wont be you?

The party doesn't belong to the plp but the members and the plp should answer to the members, if they dont want to be a labour party MP then they should either resign their membership and go independent or cross the floor. I'm not calling for them to resign because the voters elected them to be their mp and they can affirm or revoke that choice at the next election.

You see we have different perspectives your coup d'etat could be the desperation of people who are committed to actually achieving something in their political careers rather than watching the Tories do what they like. Remember the PLP members are actually elected, which gives them rather a lot of legitimacy.
It is not clear that the Labour party belongs to the members, especially if a lot of them have joined recently and have different views to the other members. The actual legal status is ambiguous to say the least.
The job of MPs is not to do something for YOU personally, but what they consider to be the good of the country. I hope you realise that most MPs sincerely believe that this is the only course to save the Labour party from perpetual opposition.
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G Rowls
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Rubbish it belongs to the fee paying members of which the mps are one . if they dont like that then dont be a party member, the parties not there to just futher some ones political career but meet its stated objectives. if you dont like those objectives by all means convince enough members to change them or leave.

As to your point of new mebers holding different beliefs thats why they have things called votes and if a vote goes in a direction you really cant stomach you leave join another party or form your own..

Why should a small handfull of members get to dictate to the majority who did vote for Corybn just because they are mps? yes it's an odd relationship between mps and a party the voters are their boss but the party assets belong to the members not the voters.

How long your a member has nothing to do with it your either paid up legal member with the same rights granted by the parties constitution or or if your not a member your say comes at the election.
 
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