$30.00
Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

1862: Railway Mania in the Eastern Counties» Forums » Rules

Subject: Freight Trains and Tokened-Out Cities rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Patrick Menard
United States
Lincoln
NE
flag msg tools
For this example, N&S has a 2F and 3F for trains.

The Track is: Port--Lowestoft--Beccles--Framlingham--Stowmarket--Sudbury

N&S has tokens in Lowestoft and Sudbury. Beccles is tokened-out.

The 2F can run Port--Lowestoft--Beccles.

Can the 3F then run Beccles--Framlingham--Stowmarket--Sudbury?

Each route has a station marker (7.4).
It only uses 1 port (7.4).
At least 1 route uses the home station marker (7.8)
The run intersects with the previous one at a tokened out city (7.8)

So the real question is per 7.8.1, can they act as a 5F with a tokened out city in the middle.

A) The tokened-out city would stop it, so you only get the run for the 2F train, scoring 60 (port) + 20 (Beccles) + 30 for Lowestoft (intervening hex with port bonus)

B) The tokened-out city doesn't stop it and it acts like a 5F train, scoring 60 (port) + 20 (Sudbury) + 120 (4 intervening hexes with port bonus)

If they were 2 permanent freight trains, that creates another option:
C) The tokened-out city splits the run, first train scoring 60 (port) + 20 (Beccles) + 30 (1 intervening hex). second train scors 0 (can't score Beccles again) + 20 (Sudbury) + 40 (2 intervening hexes no bonus since this is a different route)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Memento ferrugo
badge
Memento ferrugo
mbmbmbmbmb
I can't cite anything authoritative, though Mike often follows up here with rules threads, but I believe the answer is B, because when running chained Freight trains, each train must have a distinct route (including a token) and because they are each distinct and joined end to end at the tokened out city, my inkling is that this is OK to run the full distance, but I'd love to know the correct answer.

Edit: From Mike's FAQ, I think this clears it up:

Quote:
Q: The example in section 7.8.1 implies that multiple non-permanent freight trains combine and operate as a single

unit. How does this tie in with the need to visit station tokens, etc?

A: The example is only intended to apply to the calculation of revenue from runs, and not create a "double-header"

situation as found in 1829 and 1825. The example is better stated as "E.g. Calculating revenue for a F2 and a F3

train is the same as for a single F5 train". In other words, when determining routes each train is treated as a

separate train
for the purposes of visiting station markers etc., but when calculating revenue they are treated as

working together rather than separately
.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Note that since the non permanent trains' routes are treated individually you can run a series of non permanent freight trains from one port to a different port or from one red off board to a different red off board.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Menard
United States
Lincoln
NE
flag msg tools
jrebelo wrote:
I can't cite anything authoritative, though Mike often follows up here with rules threads, but I believe the answer is B, because when running chained Freight trains, each train must have a distinct route (including a token) and because they are each distinct and joined end to end at the tokened out city, my inkling is that this is OK to run the full distance, but I'd love to know the correct answer.


The rules allow wiggle room in both directions. My first reaction was that connecting at a blocked city would work for express/local because each train operates individually, unlike a freight, which run end to end and don't count the middle spot.

In my view the FAQ really didn't really specifically answer this scenario either way.

However, with the game requiring that routes interconnect and not being able to count each city/port/off-board more than once, it really more simulates that you get value from the rail network as a whole (which I really like). So a series of freight trains act like a relay, and bring value to the ends with a proportional bonus for the overall distance (but not delivering to any location in the middle).

The only thing that breaks that vision is being able to transit the blocked out cities (tokens representing the companies that have track going trough the city itself, not just reaching the edge). However, the board is tight, and if it weren't possible to have routes linked through a blocked city, the tokens would be too powerful and the game would break down quickly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Hutton
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Umbrage wrote:
jrebelo wrote:
I can't cite anything authoritative, though Mike often follows up here with rules threads, but I believe the answer is B, because when running chained Freight trains, each train must have a distinct route (including a token) and because they are each distinct and joined end to end at the tokened out city, my inkling is that this is OK to run the full distance, but I'd love to know the correct answer.


The rules allow wiggle room in both directions. My first reaction was that connecting at a blocked city would work for express/local because each train operates individually, unlike a freight, which run end to end and don't count the middle spot.

In my view the FAQ really didn't really specifically answer this scenario either way.

However, with the game requiring that routes interconnect and not being able to count each city/port/off-board more than once, it really more simulates that you get value from the rail network as a whole (which I really like). So a series of freight trains act like a relay, and bring value to the ends with a proportional bonus for the overall distance (but not delivering to any location in the middle).

The only thing that breaks that vision is being able to transit the blocked out cities (tokens representing the companies that have track going trough the city itself, not just reaching the edge). However, the board is tight, and if it weren't possible to have routes linked through a blocked city, the tokens would be too powerful and the game would break down quickly.

7.8 Running Trains

...

At least one run for a company must include the town occupied by the company’s home station
marker. The next run must intersect with the main run at any large station (not red off-board area
or port). The connecting large station does not need to be occupied by a company station marker.
Indeed, a station which is tokened out by hostile station markers may be used to connect two train
runs, provided both train runs terminate there.
Each further run must intersect with a previous run
in a similar way, using the same or different large stations to connect.

...

7.8.1 Freight

...

If a company runs multiple
freight trains, these must connect
with each other end-to-end, and
only score the end points of the
combined trains
plus the bonus
for intervening hexes.

...

Does this answer the question?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Menard
United States
Lincoln
NE
flag msg tools
Mike Hutton wrote:

7.8 Running Trains

...

At least one run for a company must include the town occupied by the company’s home station
marker. The next run must intersect with the main run at any large station (not red off-board area
or port). The connecting large station does not need to be occupied by a company station marker.
Indeed, a station which is tokened out by hostile station markers may be used to connect two train
runs, provided both train runs terminate there.
Each further run must intersect with a previous run
in a similar way, using the same or different large stations to connect.

...

7.8.1 Freight

...

If a company runs multiple
freight trains, these must connect
with each other end-to-end, and
only score the end points of the
combined trains
plus the bonus
for intervening hexes.

...

Does this answer the question?


Thanks for the clarification Mike.

This was the only real issue that we ran across from our first play of 1862. Most games you can't run past a tokened city at all, so having aggregate freight routes span a tokended city was a bit non-intuitive, but overall didn't have much of an impact on the end-game standings.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paolo Russo
Italy
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Quickinfo: can you also run different trains, joining them at a tokened-out station. So far I get two freights can meet at the tokened-out station, wouldmit work also for a local and an express?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Hutton
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Serpentium wrote:
Quickinfo: can you also run different trains, joining them at a tokened-out station. So far I get two freights can meet at the tokened-out station, wouldmit work also for a local and an express?


It would work, and may be a little less counter-intuitive than two freights. It's just that the rules for connecting freights changes the way they collect revenue, whereas this doesn't really apply in the same way for locals and expresses.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.