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Subject: Why Electric Cars Will Be Here Sooner Than You Think rss

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Steven Woodcock
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I'd gladly own an electric car if one made sense for me. I live on a gravely/mountain road and JUST destroyed the oilpan in my Trailblazer...having a car that didn't have any "fiddly bits" hanging off the bottom has a great appeal to me:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-electric-cars-will-be-here-s...
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Boaty McBoatface
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Bloody liberals.
 
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Mac Mcleod
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Once ICE drops below a certain percentage they lose their network effect.

Then it becomes more expensive to own ICE.

Continuing improvement and increasing competition will continue to make the case for electric cars even better.
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Steven Woodcock
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slatersteven wrote:
Bloody liberals.


?
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Steven Woodcock
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galad2003 wrote:
What an idiotic headline, electric cars are already here.


Write to Christopher Mims at christopher.mims@wsj.com

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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Cars that run on coal instead of gasoline.

Yeah. That's a step up.
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J.D. Hall
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Yeah, few people consider how the electricity is produced that runs these days. Personally, I'd rather have a CNG-powered vehicle.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Cars that run on coal instead of gasoline.

Yeah. That's a step up.


Isn't coal cheaper per kilowatt hour than gasoline? Works for me! And if it's cleaner too, ok.

Heck, if it moves the emissions out of city centers and focuses them in industrial zones, that has some positive effects too, e.g., less smog, breathing in China, etc.
 
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Carl Parsons
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Not all electric is produced by coal. In fact only a third of it is. Electricity generation in this country is getting cleaner every day. The benefits of people owning electric cars isn't necessarily about the energy it uses now, it's about moving the country towards better energy sources.

Quote:
In 2015, the United States generated about 4 trillion kilowatthours of electricity.1 About 67% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and petroleum).

Major energy sources and percent share of total U.S. electricity generation in 2015:1

Coal = 33%
Natural gas = 33%
Nuclear = 20%
Hydropower = 6%
Other renewables = 7%
Biomass = 1.6%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Solar = 0.6%
Wind = 4.7%
Petroleum = 1%
Other gases = <1%


https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

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Mac Mcleod
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Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.

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maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


It's ultimately a misleading number in a certain sense -- your real cost per mile is the cost of your car per month (purchase cost + maintenance) + cost of fuel per month.

Or more directly, buying an electric car isn't a good idea from a purely economic sense.
 
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A quick look shows used electric cars at around $9k on the low end. A lower end used car is $2k.

If you save $1.60 per gallon of gasoline (e.g., gas is $2/gallon,) you would need to buy 4375 ($7k/$1.6) gallons of gasoline to make it worth the price difference: even w/ crappy mileage (20 mpg,) that's 87,500 miles per year.

(And if you're driving that many miles per year, stopping more often to refuel is going to be a serious problem.)

As they get cheaper they'll make more sense!
 
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Chengkai Yang
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Terwox wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


It's ultimately a misleading number in a certain sense -- your real cost per mile is the cost of your car per month (purchase cost + maintenance) + cost of fuel per month.

Or more directly, buying an electric car isn't a good idea from a purely economic sense.


Depending on where you live, you can use the carpool lane, park in charging spots, and not get flack for parking in those eco vehicle spots. Also depending on location, your cost for charging can be free. If nothing else the free charging and carpool lane use change the monetary evaluation. CA is also proposing increasing vehicle registration fees and reworking the gas tax to ensure that electric/hybrids are contributing to road costs but thats a diff story.
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draxx01 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


It's ultimately a misleading number in a certain sense -- your real cost per mile is the cost of your car per month (purchase cost + maintenance) + cost of fuel per month.

Or more directly, buying an electric car isn't a good idea from a purely economic sense.


Depending on where you live, you can use the carpool lane, park in charging spots, and not get flack for parking in those eco vehicle spots. Also depending on location, your cost for charging can be free. If nothing else the free charging and carpool lane use change the monetary evaluation. CA is also proposing increasing vehicle registration fees and reworking the gas tax to ensure that electric/hybrids are contributing to road costs but thats a diff story.


Read my lips, Mexico will pay for the road costs!
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Mac Mcleod
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Terwox wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


It's ultimately a misleading number in a certain sense -- your real cost per mile is the cost of your car per month (purchase cost + maintenance) + cost of fuel per month.

Or more directly, buying an electric car isn't a good idea from a purely economic sense.


The same argument applies to ice cars too. With gasoline at 4 per gall on, electric cars were cheaper tco than gasoline cars. At 2, the are close to the same tco but consume and pollute less.

Gasoline will probably be 3 again within 8 years.
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Mac Mcleod
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Terwox wrote:
A quick look shows used electric cars at around $9k on the low end. A lower end used car is $2k.

If you save $1.60 per gallon of gasoline (e.g., gas is $2/gallon,) you would need to buy 4375 ($7k/$1.6) gallons of gasoline to make it worth the price difference: even w/ crappy mileage (20 mpg,) that's 87,500 miles per year.

(And if you're driving that many miles per year, stopping more often to refuel is going to be a serious problem.)

As they get cheaper they'll make more sense!


Terwox
.. I havnt seen a usable used car at 2000 in over 15 years. Try more like 6 to 9 k for a good used car you can trust. Cash for clunkers raised used car prices too.
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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maxo-texas wrote:
Terwox wrote:
A quick look shows used electric cars at around $9k on the low end. A lower end used car is $2k.

If you save $1.60 per gallon of gasoline (e.g., gas is $2/gallon,) you would need to buy 4375 ($7k/$1.6) gallons of gasoline to make it worth the price difference: even w/ crappy mileage (20 mpg,) that's 87,500 miles per year.

(And if you're driving that many miles per year, stopping more often to refuel is going to be a serious problem.)

As they get cheaper they'll make more sense!


Terwox
.. I havnt seen a usable used car at 2000 in over 15 years. Try more like 6 to 9 k for a good used car you can trust. Cash for clunkers raised used car prices too.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I offer a different perspective:

I buy lots of used cars. (Lots" meaning a couple each year. "Lots" meaning a lot more than most people).

Used cars go for above blue book value up here. Often significantly above blue book. I don't buy those. I buy $1000 dollar cars, sink another grand into them and would have no problem giving it to my teenage daughter for a 1000 mile road trip.

Those 6 grand cars represent $4000 profit.
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David desJardins
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maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


Even if you burn natural gas to generate electricity which you transmit through power lines and store in batteries to power your car, that still generates a lot less emissions than burning gasoline because a modern power plant is so much more efficient than a modern internal combustion engine (around 3x).
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Mac Mcleod
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DaviddesJ wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Last time I looked into it. Electric car with electricity was about $0.40 for the same distance as a gallon of gasoline. To me this implies that it is proportionally less polluting.


Even if you burn natural gas to generate electricity which you transmit through power lines and store in batteries to power your car, that still generates a lot less emissions than burning gasoline because a modern power plant is so much more efficient than a modern internal combustion engine (around 3x).


I agree-- I was thinking the same thing.

See any problem with coal? I know a lot of them are grandfathered.
 
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David desJardins
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maxo-texas wrote:
See any problem with coal? I know a lot of them are grandfathered.


Coal is really just bad. CO2 emissions from coal are about twice as much as natural gas, that obviates any efficiency gains from the plants. The plants aren't quite as efficient as natural gas plants, either (although certainly more efficient than internal combustion engines).

Getting energy from breaking the C-H bonds in methane gives you a lot more energy per carbon atom than getting energy from breaking the C-C bonds in coal. Gasoline is in between because it has both C-C and C-H bonds.
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Ok guys. This is tough. Feel free to ignore it.

Pollution and efficiency are not on the same scale.

The two do not even correlate in the realm we are speaking.

Older, more polluting cars got far better fuel efficiency than modern less polluting cars.

Remember the VW diesel fiasco. Great, fuel efficient engines, very polluting. Had to cheat to do it. It isn't just VW, gov't pollution controls killed fuel efficiency.
 
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David desJardins
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Koldfoot wrote:
Pollution and efficiency are not on the same scale.


Essentially all of the carbon in any fossil fuel that you burn is converted to CO2 molecules. So the CO2 emissions per kwh (or MJ) are proportional to the energy content per carbon atom (which depends only on the fuel), divided by the efficiency of the power plant (which is determined by its design).
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Pollution and efficiency are not on the same scale.


Essentially all of the carbon in any fossil fuel that you burn is converted to CO2 molecules. So the CO2 emissions per kwh (or MJ) are proportional to the energy content per carbon atom (which depends only on the fuel), divided by the efficiency of the power plant (which is determined by its design).


So why are the VW engines so efficient, but can't meet pollution standard unless they are far less fuel efficient?
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David desJardins
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Koldfoot wrote:
So why are the VW engines so efficient, but can't meet pollution standard unless they are far less fuel efficient?


That problem is with NOx emissions. Unlike CO2 emissions, the NOx emissions depend not just on how much fuel is burned, but also how it's burned.
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
So why are the VW engines so efficient, but can't meet pollution standard unless they are far less fuel efficient?


That problem is with NOx emissions. Unlike CO2 emissions, the NOx emissions depend not just on how much fuel is burned, but also how it's burned.


Sooooo we agree that the two are on different spectrums?
 
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