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Subject: EU demands Apple pay Ireland up to 13 billion euros in tax rss

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Steven Woodcock
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Hmmm:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-idUS...
 
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J
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Both Apple and Ireland are appealing.
 
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Josh
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The part of the article that sparked the most curiosity for me was that apple is floating 230m liquid. That's a ton of grist thst could be in the mill. It's not like lending is tight.
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Boaty McBoatface
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jmilum wrote:
Both Apple and Ireland are appealing.
I do not find them so.
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jmilum wrote:
Both Apple and Ireland are appealing.
You probably should have said:
"Both Apple and Ireland are appalling."

Quote:
"Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years," said Competition Commission Margrethe Vestager, whose crackdown on mainly U.S. multinationals has angered Washington which accuses Brussels of protectionism.
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.
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Steven Woodcock
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Shadrach wrote:
The part of the article that sparked the most curiosity for me was that apple is floating 230m liquid. That's a ton of grist thst could be in the mill. It's not like lending is tight.



They do have a mega buttload (it's murky where the line is, but I think this qualifies) of cash.



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Shadrach wrote:
The part of the article that sparked the most curiosity for me was that apple is floating 230m liquid. That's a ton of grist thst could be in the mill. It's not like lending is tight.
There does seem to be alot of cash on hand in many large corporations. What happened to raising salaries and investing in job creating growth? Oh yeah, it is a myth. Only demand creates growth.
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The more I think about it, the more incredulous I get. The U.S. government is defending a U.S. company using a tax shelter to not pay U.S. taxes. Really? Crom, that's FUBAR.
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TheChin! wrote:
The more I think about it, the more incredulous I get. The U.S. government is defending a U.S. company using a tax shelter to not pay U.S. taxes. Really? Crom, that's FUBAR.
No, that's Washington.

Guess when you elect a tax dodging multi millionaire business man that will all change.
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galad2003 wrote:
Surely the answer is to give government more power.
Not necessarily, just insulate the power it currently has from the influence of Apple and its peers.
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I've been saying governments were going to go where the money was.

https://apple.slashdot.org/story/16/08/30/1423225/apple-orde...

Quote:
Apple has been ordered to pay a record sum of 13 billion euros ($14.5 billion) plus interest after the European Commission said Ireland illegally slashed the iPhone maker's tax bill, in a crackdown on fiscal loopholes that also risks inflaming tensions with the United States Treasury. According to the European Union regulator, Apple benefited from selective tax treatment that gave it an unfair advantage over other businesses. In the meanwhile, Apple has refuted such accusations, saying that EU's conclusion has "no basis in fact or law." EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said, "If my effective tax rate would be 0.05 percent falling to 0.005 percent -- I would have felt that maybe I should have a second look at my tax bill." Apple CEO Tim Cook said, "Over the years, we received guidance from Irish tax authorities on how to comply correctly with Irish tax law -- the same kind of guidance available to any company doing business there. In Ireland and in every country where we operate, Apple follows the law and we pay all the taxes we owe."


I imagine Apple will get out with only a 1.4 billion dollar tax bill in the end.

But I don't think companies are going to be able to keep manipulating their taxes like this. If you sell a product in an area, you'll end up paying taxes to that area regardless of how you set it up with franchise fees and special tax accounting.

If the full amount sticks, it's more than a quarter's worth of net profits.
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TheChin! wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
The part of the article that sparked the most curiosity for me was that apple is floating 230m liquid. That's a ton of grist thst could be in the mill. It's not like lending is tight.
There does seem to be alot of cash on hand in many large corporations. What happened to raising salaries and investing in job creating growth? Oh yeah, it is a myth. Only demand creates growth.


The argument (theoretically) is that this is the range of numbers you need to be able to instantly snap up, in their entirety, desirable start-ups that you want to absorb. So you sort of need to have it on hand in case something comes along you want to get off the market immediately and consume before it can become a threat/benefit a competitor/etc.

Ehhh...actually, maybe that's not much of a positive spin on it...
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galad2003 wrote:
I don't understand how Ireland can "illegally slash Apple's bill." Can't Ireland set their own tax rate?If not then that sucks and shouldn't Ireland be punished?


Certain types of state aid to companies are considered anti-competitive and illegal. The court found that the deal that Ireland gave Apple was not available to other companies and so was state aid.

Read http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en....
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TheChin! wrote:
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.


Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35381130
23 January 2016
Quote:
Tax inquiry

HMRC acted after controversy over the low level of taxes paid by big companies that operate in the UK but have headquarters abroad.

Despite the UK being one of Google's biggest markets, it paid £20.4m in taxes in 2013. The value of its sales in Britain that year was £3.8bn. Google makes most of its UK profits through online advertising here.

The company has been criticized for its complex international tax structures.

Its European headquarters are in Ireland, which has a lower corporation tax rate than the UK.

It has also used company structures in Bermuda - where the corporation tax rate is zero - to shelter profits.

Such moves are legal and Google - a US business, which pays the majority of its taxes there - says it has abided by international tax rules.
Accounting change

The firm has now agreed to change its accounting system so that a higher proportion of sales activity is registered in Britain rather than Ireland.

It has pledged to pay more tax on those sales in the future.


Companies use dodgy tax shelters for years all the time. And then they get busted. SYSCO Foods had to pay a billion in taxes after its tax scheme was ruled illegal after several years.

It took countries a while to figure out what companies were doing. The countries mostly figured out because the companies got overly greedy.

Making 3.8 billion in sales and paying 20 million in taxes is going to attract attention.

And when enough companies started doing it, then it was going to be stopped.
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she2 wrote:
Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
They weren't though, Ireland stopped the sweet tax deal a few years ago. The EU is going around to many companies and having them square up their taxes, both EU and U.S. companies, Apple just happens to be the highest judgment, by far, so far. I have no problem if they are making an example of them. I hope they shut down the Netherlands next, those jerks have been ripping us off for years.

I also wish someone would have the balls to fight sweetheart tax deals in the states, maybe based on the Commerce clause or something. One state shouldn't be able to waive its taxes for one company so they can steal its business and jobs from another state. You have a tax rate, in the interest of a fair market, it better be the same for everyone in your state. So if you want to attract Dolly's Decadent Dildos corporate HQ to your state, you have to have the the same tax rate as Delilah's Double-headed Dildos already in your state. If you want to attract more business to your state, drop you tax rate for everybody. It seems to be the same issue here. The EU wants its member states to stop screwing each other for hand outs from Multinationals playing them off each other. It's bad for the EU as a whole, just like poaching is bad for the U.S.
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she2 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.


Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
Seems to be pretty standard for the EU, something needs doing so it gets talked about for 20 years.

The whole point here is this is exactly what many do not like about the EU. They have rules that are ignored, they discus problems for ever without tackling them. All that has happened here is that the EU bureaucracy has decided to flex it's muscles.

It is worth noting that neither Ireland nor apple are alone in this.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
she2 wrote:
Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
They weren't though, Ireland stopped the sweet tax deal a few years ago. The EU is going around to many companies and having them square up their taxes, both EU and U.S. companies, Apple just happens to be the highest judgment, by far, so far. I have no problem if they are making an example of them. I hope they shut down the Netherlands next, those jerks have been ripping us off for years.



If you say so. All I can find is an article about Ireland potentially shutting down the Double Irish tax strategy from 2014. But I don't think this has anything to do with that. If you want to link something definitive that this is actually back taxes due to Ireland changing their law, then go ahead and do it. Ireland doesn't think it is, otherwise they wouldn't be suing.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?...

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-now-caugh...

 
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maxo-texas wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35381130
23 January 2016
Quote:
Tax inquiry

HMRC acted after controversy over the low level of taxes paid by big companies that operate in the UK but have headquarters abroad.

Despite the UK being one of Google's biggest markets, it paid £20.4m in taxes in 2013. The value of its sales in Britain that year was £3.8bn. Google makes most of its UK profits through online advertising here.

The company has been criticized for its complex international tax structures.

Its European headquarters are in Ireland, which has a lower corporation tax rate than the UK.

It has also used company structures in Bermuda - where the corporation tax rate is zero - to shelter profits.

Such moves are legal and Google - a US business, which pays the majority of its taxes there - says it has abided by international tax rules.
Accounting change

The firm has now agreed to change its accounting system so that a higher proportion of sales activity is registered in Britain rather than Ireland.

It has pledged to pay more tax on those sales in the future.


Companies use dodgy tax shelters for years all the time. And then they get busted. SYSCO Foods had to pay a billion in taxes after its tax scheme was ruled illegal after several years.

It took countries a while to figure out what companies were doing. The countries mostly figured out because the companies got overly greedy.

Making 3.8 billion in sales and paying 20 million in taxes is going to attract attention.

And when enough companies started doing it, then it was going to be stopped.


Whatever. Companies are never going to stop trying to avoid paying taxes. If the US really wanted to keep jobs here, we would revise the corporate tax code as opposed to creating an incentive for companies to move elsewhere.
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galad2003 wrote:
I don't feel bad for Apple. A few weeks ago they basically flipped the US the bird and said they were going to keep using that tax shelter so it seems like Karma.


I don't feel sorry for them at all, but it makes me crazy when liberals simultaneously whine about job creation and then want corporations to stay here and pay full taxes, like they are stupid.
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slatersteven wrote:
she2 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.


Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
Seems to be pretty standard for the EU, something needs doing so it gets talked about for 20 years.

The whole point here is this is exactly what many do not like about the EU. They have rules that are ignored, they discus problems for ever without tackling them.


This particular case was more a bit more complex than most because when Apple set up in Ireland in 1991 it was a declining business and in much of the first decade wouldn't have made a profit on EMEA business. As such the actual decision only applies to the period from 2003.

I would imagine the process would start with the Commission telling Ireland to get its house in order and sort the situation out for a number of years before starting their own investigations.
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andyl wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
she2 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.


Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
Seems to be pretty standard for the EU, something needs doing so it gets talked about for 20 years.

The whole point here is this is exactly what many do not like about the EU. They have rules that are ignored, they discus problems for ever without tackling them.


This particular case was more a bit more complex than most because when Apple set up in Ireland in 1991 it was a declining business and in much of the first decade wouldn't have made a profit on EMEA business. As such the actual decision only applies to the period from 2003.

I would imagine the process would start with the Commission telling Ireland to get its house in order and sort the situation out for a number of years before starting their own investigations.
That is how I see it, they told Ireland there was an issue, waited, told Ireland it need sorting, waited and so on.
 
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she2 wrote:

If you say so. All I can find is an article about Ireland potentially shutting down the Double Irish tax strategy from 2014. But I don't think this has anything to do with that. If you want to link something definitive that this is actually back taxes due to Ireland changing their law, then go ahead and do it. Ireland doesn't think it is, otherwise they wouldn't be suing.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?...

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-now-caugh...

No, my bad, I misread the original article, I thought it said that this wasn't going on anymore, but had in the past. But, I still think it was shitty act by Apple/Ireland and since they aren't singling these two out I don't think it's a stunt.
 
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she2 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
I don't feel bad for Apple. A few weeks ago they basically flipped the US the bird and said they were going to keep using that tax shelter so it seems like Karma.


I don't feel sorry for them at all, but it makes me crazy when liberals simultaneously whine about job creation and then want corporations to stay here and pay full taxes, like they are stupid.


I don't think Apple's status in Ireland really created many jobs in Ireland.
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slatersteven wrote:
andyl wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
she2 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Yeah, woohoo, Washington is defending multinationals who take their profits off shore so they don't have to pay their fair share to keep the U.S. market safe and stable. Treasury Department fail.


Oh bullshit. US companies doing business in a country for 20 years under fixed national tax laws shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them by the EU. If this was such a pressing issue, then the EU could have done something over the last 20 years. It's a political stunt.
Seems to be pretty standard for the EU, something needs doing so it gets talked about for 20 years.

The whole point here is this is exactly what many do not like about the EU. They have rules that are ignored, they discus problems for ever without tackling them.


This particular case was more a bit more complex than most because when Apple set up in Ireland in 1991 it was a declining business and in much of the first decade wouldn't have made a profit on EMEA business. As such the actual decision only applies to the period from 2003.

I would imagine the process would start with the Commission telling Ireland to get its house in order and sort the situation out for a number of years before starting their own investigations.
That is how I see it, they told Ireland there was an issue, waited, told Ireland it need sorting, waited and so on.


Anyone would think the EU hasn't been given unrestrained power over the member states.
 
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