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Subject: Spidicules and Screaming Antelope in a campaign rss

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John
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The rules state that Spidicules replaces Screaming Antelope. And judging a lot of user experiences here I notice that not everyone is that much of a fan of Spidicules (besides the disadvantages of using it's awesome miniature during the showdown phase.)

We are considering to have both quarries available to hunt, since we like the aspect of variation in huntable quarries early on. Is there a specific reason we have overseen for not implementing both in one campaign?
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Intended rules, as far as I'm concerned, since the addition rules IMHO look like they're really just for adding a monster when you're in the middle of a campaign, and starting a new one and adding it seems pretty game-y.
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We never replace one with the other. Hunt what you want from either. It wont make the game easier...besides denying you the pissibility of hunting that quarry. They do not overlap and until an update to the Cooking ingredients appears and other similar things, Antelope is required to get the most use out of such things.
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Thorsten Schröder
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Just out of curiosity (since I the game is currently unavailable):

What expansions would you recomment for someone starting with the game.
Researching I think most people don't throw everything together. And now that I hear that some expansions take away vanilla content...

So if there would be this reprint-KS and someone would plan on buying two or three expansions: Which would add to the game without taking anything out?
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Steve Trewartha
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Yeah I don't necessarily see why the spider needs to replace the antelope either. Unless there are some obscure powerful overlaps that no one has come across yet.


Cuthailion wrote:
Just out of curiosity (since I the game is currently unavailable):

What expansions would you recomment for someone starting with the game.
Researching I think most people don't throw everything together. And now that I hear that some expansions take away vanilla content...

So if there would be this reprint-KS and someone would plan on buying two or three expansions: Which would add to the game without taking anything out?


Gorm probably adds the most amount of stuff for a normal monster expansion. The dragon and the sunstalker both add their own campaigns (as well as just being able to hunt them in the normal game) so those two overall easily add the most content. If you want value for money definitely get quarry monster expansions not nemesis expansions since you don't fight nemesis very much.
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Stuart Martyn
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I think the Lion Knight adds a lot to the game, actually. Three new armour sets, for one, as well as a (limited) ability to recycle gear and various other settlement bits. And those tactics cards mean it naturally combines with the other two Knight expansions. Certainly not as much gear as a quarry, though.
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Drew Olds
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There isn't any game balance reason why you can't fight both a screaming antelope and spidicules.

Personally, I am a fan of Spidicules, and prefer hunting him over the screaming antelope.

While the Gorm and Spidicules both state that they are meant to replace a hunt, there aren't any broken gear combos that you get from having both.

I would not have them be in the same year, if I were you. Move either one's starting event back in the timeline (you could move the antelope's endless screams just as easily) and viola!





As for recommendations on expansions:

Gorm and Spidicules both change the campaign significantly because they show up so early and their gear will form the basis for your settlement.

Sunstalker and Dragon, as has been said, have new campaigns included in addition to the hunt events. That adds a ton of content.


The later the hunt, the less it changes the game- so the Lion God (while loads of fun) doesn't make an enormous difference on the campaign as a whole.

All of the expansions do add more than it would seem, though. Playing a campaign with the Manhunter or Slenderman can really make a big difference. The same goes for the knights.
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Steve Trewartha
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Styfen wrote:

So far I believe it is only the Spidicules and Antelope that supposed to be exclusive, probably because the Antelope won't graze in an area infested with Spidies.



I don't know if you were talking about just quarries, but Slenderman also replaces the Kingsman. I think those are the only ones that directly replace.
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Henry Akeley
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Styfen wrote:
odinsgrandson wrote:
While the Gorm and Spidicules both state that they are meant to replace a hunt, there aren't any broken gear combos that you get from having both.settlement.

The Gorm doesn't replace anything. It's an additional early game monster that can be hunted alongside the White Lion.

The White Lion becomes a viable quarry during the Event 'Returning Survivors' and then the Gorm becomes a viable quarry during the Event 'A Gathering Storm'. These two events are not mutually exclusive, they both happen in LY 1. The price paid for the Gorm is the Gorm Climate.

So far I believe it is only the Spidicules and Antelope that supposed to be exclusive, probably because the Antelope won't graze in an area infested with Spidies.


--------------------------------------

After some time thinking about this, I'm actually going to say the best expansion for content is the Sunstalker (DBK or Gorm is second). It comes with a campaign (same as the Dragon King) but it also has one of the most versatile and interesting sets of equipment/armour in the game. Every time I want to try and make the best use out of something I find myself going back to the Cyclopian Armour set as a basis, Prismatic is just too good an ability. It's also a really unique set because it supports archers and enables players to play a 'rogue' type character (blind spot backstabs and reducing the chances you are attacked).

It also has two of the best bows in the game, one of the best axes, an amazingly useful spear and a nearly top end Grand Weapon (Only the Blacksmith's slayers are better, but the Skleaver build has masses of evasion and regenerating armour so it might be better). All of this is without considering how well it synergises with gear from both the Spidicules and the Antelope.


Finally Sunstalker getting some love! I've long maintained it is my favorite expansion. Not just because People of the Sun is a fantastic campaign, but as you said because of the gear.

Love the Cycloid Scale Armor Set. The bows are actually very good (Sunshark bow is great and doesn't have cumbersome), and as you said Skleaver is great. Note the Skleaver does not have slow on it.....making it potentially devastating in the hands of a survivor with a nice speed bonus.
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Henry Akeley
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Styfen wrote:
Epidemius wrote:
Finally Sunstalker getting some love! I've long maintained it is my favorite expansion. Not just because People of the Sun is a fantastic campaign, but as you said because of the gear.


I love the campaign apart from:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The ending, I know KD:M is nihilistic in design and has few happy endings. But the endings of both People of the Sun and People of the Stars feels forced and poorly thought through. It's my major complaint for both of them, I've seen the reactions people have to these endings. It's mostly disappointment.


That said, I actually think People of the Sun might be the best campaign for people who are struggling to get far into the timeline, the way the Nemesis encounters are moved to the end of the timeline means players have a long time to build up, learn the game and prepare.

The expansion really needs a warning in it however, telling people to not use any Nemesis expansions or the Spidicules in the People of the Sun campaign. (Maybe Spidicules should just come with a warning to not use it in anything )


I personally love the People of the Sun campaign ending. Even more than the People of the Lantern ending. However I am a gaming masochist and firmly believe in "bad ends" for both narratives and movies. Also, endings don't bother me as much for this game, because I go into it knowing I'm enjoying the narrative/experience. Kind of like how I expect the ending in the The 7th Continent to be totally lackluster. However I'm only buying/playing that game for the fun of exploring the map and wonder as I stumble onto things. Not so much what happens when/if I lift the curse. I guess its sort of Slaaneshi in that I revel in the experience and not so much the outcome.

I agree People of the Sun (even more so than Stars) should've had that warning in it to not use any other expansions with it. Even if you use Gorm or Spidicules.......you're missing out on some sweet gear from the Sacred Pool that requires WL/Antelope/Phoenix parts.

On prismatic from the Cycloid Scale Set........I like that the Sunstalker campaign's gimmick if you will is transferable to other campaigns. That is neat. I also like that even though its transferable it doesn't take away from Warriors of the Sun since they have prismatic inherently and also other cool abilities on top of prismatic. That ability [prismatic] can potentially make Warriors of the Sun OP if given the right combo of stuff.

As I continue reading about it Spidicules sounds like a big disappointment. Second biggest disappointment after Lonely Tree (though I kind of want to buy LT). The lack of inter-operability/compatibility with other expansions is what pushes Spidicules down to near LT bad levels for me.

 
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Drew Olds
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The advice on the new campaigns is taht you do not add any other expansions. Also, if you're playing a core campaign, add only three expansions at a time. Of course, I think that the Green Armor requires four other expansions in order to aquire all of the parts for it, so I don't think that advice stands up to scrutiny.

Our group doesn't often listen to that sort of advice anyway.

Spidicules worked just fine with it (I really enjoyed fighting him). And, like I said before, there aren't any issues with having spiders and antelopes available to hunt in the campaign.

The ones that didn't work well with it were the Gorm (mostly because his armor is all Heavy, and the people can't use heavy armor) and the Manhunter (because adding any nemesis to the campaign create instant death for your settlement).

The Slender Man didn't have anything to replace, and that's an issue as well.

But I didn't see any trouble with Spidicules there, but I suppose we were missing a few bits and bobs that required antelope parts. To be honest, we could easily have inserted both hunts without any issues, except that we probably would have simply chosen one hunt over the other all the time.
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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odinsgrandson wrote:
The ones that didn't work well with it were the Gorm (mostly because his armor is all Heavy, and the people can't use heavy armor) and the Manhunter (because adding any nemesis to the campaign create instant death for your settlement).


I did a whole basic campaign with manhunter added and I managed to kill the 4 times I met him. Albeit it wasn't an easy fight (and it gets harder and harder each time), I don't think he is an instant death for your campaign. And some of his gear are very helpful.
He just requires a bit of thinking (and luck with his high level versions)
 
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Technically there is a method in-game that allows for a special showdown with a Screaming Antelope using Spidicules. The Silk Storm settlement event has a method at the bottom of its effects allowing the expenditure of resources to instantly create a special showdown facing off with a monster you choose. The wording is...vague. Vague enough that it could be house-ruled into allowing an antelope hunt.

As to why the game has Spidicules replace the Antelope, that can be summed up in one word: indecision.

I know everyone playing this game has likely faced it in one form or another. Do we fight this monster? What do we need to build next? Can we risk it?

Adding Spidicules and the Antelope at year 2 multiplies the indecision factor. Both creatures are not likely to yield impressive returns in gear right away. Both require multiple hunts - and in the Antelope case, at least one and up to two unlocked locations - to see any returns on the hunt investment. Spidicules also forces you back into a second hunt because of its end-story, which isn't terrible, because you are almost certainly going to have to do multiple hunts in this monster to yield net results. It's also worth noting that hunting either monster at level 1 can yield a return, but most likely you'll want a level 2 hunt to increase the resource gain.

Contrast this to the Gorm, who's locations both unlock at level one, offer substatial access to excellent gear, and could potentially net two free innovations. Most players still prefer to hunt a lion LY1 imo, if only to get a cat's eye and their beginning bow and spear...but I'm not sure anyone is going for the armor when Gorm armor is a more robust choice.

The decisions on Gorm and Lion based off gear become simple, then. You can get the resources with a few fights, all locations are unlocked, and their use is clear in a compare/contrast. After a few LY you can gain the majority of what you want and then move on.

Spidicules and Antelope are harder to do that with. The multiple hunts necessary will ultimately make one of the two choices clearly neglected, rendering it ultimately useless in the game. And by the time one set of resources has been fully attained and you begin thinking about tackling the other, the game should be at the point where you need to be taking on the Phoenix or other LY8 expac monsters to gain your more powerful weapons to take on the Watcher.

The limitations here are not really that having one or the other is denying you the options in gear. Its that you simply do not have the TIME to fully pursue both. That's the likeliest reason I can think of for this substitution, and also why the Lion and Gorm did not have similar substitution rules in place. For the latter, it simply isn't necessary. Lion hunts are probably going to become rarities in games that have access to the Gorm, but they will still happen at least once or twice because of how important some of the lion gear is to later fight tactics. But once that gear is obtained...there isn't a compelling reason to fight a lion.

Spidicules and the Antelope both have compelling gear reasons to focus on. The first because of how many multiple resource copies necessary to obtain, the latter because of how many resources it takes to unlock the locations necessary to get the gear.

And that's the best I can explain this idea. Sorry if it rambled a bit.
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Frode Steen
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I think it should be that when Spidicules enter it eats and scares Screaming Antelope away so that the hunts for Antelope are even one more space away on the hunt track instead of replacing it.
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Drew Olds
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The reason Spidicules can't be played with the Antelope is to avoid cluttering the campaign with too many things. It isn't true of every expansion due to some indecision about exactly how expansion monsters are to be integrated in a campaign (Spidicules isn't alone, though- the Slenderman operates the same way).


The Node system was alluded to during the 1.5 kickstarter, and will be used in the future to replace the less clear system of creating a campaign.

We don't have all the details, but it is clear that the core monsters will have nodes (Lion is node 1, Antelope is Node 2 and Phoenix is Node 3). When you're creating a new campaign, you simply choose whether or not to include them, just like every other monster.


The game already rewards this type of thinking- every hunt is an opportunity cost, and you really don't have time to get rewards for hunting every expansion monster in the campaign (you just won't build enough stuff).
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Whether or not I agree with the choice, there are a lot of synergies that suggest the mutual exclusivity is intentional:


The antelope's blood paint is particularly strong vs. the spider
The spider's rings IIRC fit fairly well with the flexible antelope set
The antelope now gives spear buffs (the spider has an extremely useful early spear)
The Antelope now gives harvesting buffs (the spider has a lot of harvesting options)
The body suit is quite strong (and I expect a consolation for losing the antelope options, which are by and large better or at least more transparently strong).
The spider and antelope sets both are rare means of choosing to gain insanity nearly at will (the role is replaced).

You can campaign reset or fudge it so they're in the same campaign, but IMHO it's clear that they at very least intended it to be difficult to acquire gear from both in one campaign, and I believe it's more than just cleanliness, since KD is ridiculously sprawling and there were ample opportunities to make other quarries mutually exclusive.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Basically, I think Nick's analysis is the reason, although I would say that all those synergies (don't forget cooking, at least the innovation was improved) are the reason why it's such a shame they cannot coexist.

Anyway, I agree that, barring dumb luck, this game stays challenging and has ways to be "solved" (an optimal choice), so, while not elegant, substituting is an easy way to ensure power levels stay in check.
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Sum
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
Whether or not I agree with the choice, there are a lot of synergies that suggest the mutual exclusivity is intentional:


The antelope's blood paint is particularly strong vs. the spider
The spider's rings IIRC fit fairly well with the flexible antelope set
The antelope now gives spear buffs (the spider has an extremely useful early spear)
The Antelope now gives harvesting buffs (the spider has a lot of harvesting options)
The body suit is quite strong (and I expect a consolation for losing the antelope options, which are by and large better or at least more transparently strong).
The spider and antelope sets both are rare means of choosing to gain insanity nearly at will (the role is replaced).

You can campaign reset or fudge it so they're in the same campaign, but IMHO it's clear that they at very least intended it to be difficult to acquire gear from both in one campaign, and I believe it's more than just cleanliness, since KD is ridiculously sprawling and there were ample opportunities to make other quarries mutually exclusive.


These synergies don't seem at all game breaking though, do they? I think if anything, it's more of a reason to play with both?

I think my wife and I will quite likely play with both at some point. I'm not really one for house rules, but making these monsters exclusive to each other seems to come at the cost of fun and it doesn't seem like any real balance or challenege is gained.
 
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Vince De Zutter
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sumanye wrote:
I think my wife and I will quite likely play with both at some point. I'm not really one for house rules, but making these monsters exclusive to each other seems to come at the cost of fun and it doesn't seem like any real balance or challenege is gained.


It technically wouldn't be a house rule since nothing in the Spidicules rulebook prevents you from using it along with the Antelope. The rulebook merely suggests replacing the Antelope with Spidicules, but in the same breath the rulebook also suggests adding it to an existing campaign.

If you want to play with both, do it.
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Alessio Massuoli
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The above is debatable.

EDIT: THIS above.
Quote:
These synergies don't seem at all game breaking though, do they? I think if anything, it's more of a reason to play with both?

I think my wife and I will quite likely play with both at some point. I'm not really one for house rules, but making these monsters exclusive to each other seems to come at the cost of fun and it doesn't seem like any real balance or challenege is gained.


The game feels WAY different without the Antelope.

You suddendly lack Screaming Fur, stuff for Cooking, Blood Paint and stuff from Barber Surgeon. You have a timer on your hunts, you have to manage an entire new resource.

Also, gear is really really different. Spidicules katars, although debatably inferior to lion beast ones, are fairly better than the antelope ones. Amber stuff is good, fun and interesting. Spidicules rings are good, and use monster controller mechanics to be played.

You lack something you were used to have, and you have completely different stuff in exchange.

Innovation tree is different, and there are added Settlement Events. There is an entire new resource to manage, and Silk Surgeon is a great SFA, fun and balanced.

Also, Spidicules change priority of some second-tier innovations to get some of the most interesting stuff (namely, the best offensive shield in the game).

The Showdown is fun, and a lot different. I always enjoy a Spidicules showdown, and that is one of the main reason because I keep adding them back every other campaign.

We all know the letdowns of this expansion, and there are good points in using Spidicules with the antelope, but it is not fair to just state that the intended way to play it is without merits. It has shortcomings, but it feels different enough, and PoLantern campaigns need that badly.

I dare say that, with exception of PoSun and PoStars, Spidicules addition is the most flavorful variant of a base campaign (PoSkulls being a joke campaign).
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Sum
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t3clis wrote:


The game feels WAY different without the Antelope.

You suddendly lack Screaming Fur, stuff for Cooking, Blood Paint and stuff from Barber Surgeon. You have a timer on your hunts, you have to manage an entire new resource.

Also, gear is really really different. Spidicules katars, although debatably inferior to lion beast ones, are fairly better than the antelope ones. Amber stuff is good, fun and interesting. Spidicules rings are good, and use monster controller mechanics to be played.

You lack something you were used to have, and you have completely different stuff in exchange.

Innovation tree is different, and there are added Settlement Events. There is an entire new resource to manage, and Silk Surgeon is a great SFA, fun and balanced.

Also, Spidicules change priority of some second-tier innovations to get some of the most interesting stuff (namely, the best offensive shield in the game).

The Showdown is fun, and a lot different. I always enjoy a Spidicules showdown, and that is one of the main reason because I keep adding them back every other campaign.

We all know the letdowns of this expansion, and there are good points in using Spidicules with the antelope, but it is not fair to just state that the intended way to play it is without merits. It has shortcomings, but it feels different enough, and PoLantern campaigns need that badly.

I dare say that, with exception of PoSun and PoStars, Spidicules addition is the most flavorful variant of a base campaign (PoSkulls being a joke campaign).


Hmm, I see. Thanks. Well, I guess I will try without the antelope first. A very different experience does sound quite appealing. Then after, maybe try with both.
 
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Drew Olds
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The first four expansions that I recommend are the two early hunts and two alternate campaigns (that's Gorm, Spidicules, Dragon King and Sunstalker).

This is because those ones change the gameplay experience the most (later hunts don't define your settlement as much as the early ones do).


spiralingcadaver wrote:
Whether or not I agree with the choice, there are a lot of synergies that suggest the mutual exclusivity is intentional:


The antelope's blood paint is particularly strong vs. the spider
The spider's rings IIRC fit fairly well with the flexible antelope set
The antelope now gives spear buffs (the spider has an extremely useful early spear)
The Antelope now gives harvesting buffs (the spider has a lot of harvesting options)
The body suit is quite strong (and I expect a consolation for losing the antelope options, which are by and large better or at least more transparently strong).
The spider and antelope sets both are rare means of choosing to gain insanity nearly at will (the role is replaced).

You can campaign reset or fudge it so they're in the same campaign, but IMHO it's clear that they at very least intended it to be difficult to acquire gear from both in one campaign, and I believe it's more than just cleanliness, since KD is ridiculously sprawling and there were ample opportunities to make other quarries mutually exclusive.


Well, Adam Poots is now taking advantage of those opportunities- the node system changes all of that, and it is specifically to keep the campaign clean.

A lot of your synergies work in the 1.5 game- which was not part of the game when Spidicules was written, so nixing those synergies is not intentional.

Moreover, the new version of the antelope is made to work in the node system- which means that those particular combos are not disallowed.


Anyone wishing to add every monster to a campaign will find that they don't have time to actually hunt them all- you just end up with way too many hunt intro events, and a lot of included monsters that you did not hunt.
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Nick Wirtz
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sumanye wrote:
These synergies don't seem at all game breaking though, do they? I think if anything, it's more of a reason to play with both?
If you think you need help winning, by having access to what you like and know and adding unintended combos, do whatever you like.

Personally, I'll make things harder (yes, I think it is) and play as-written unless something causes a problem, in which case, I'll change whatever I think is the minimum that will fix it, and combining things that are explicitly not supposed to be is not at all how I'd go about it.

I think the spider is a bit underwhelming, but think that the answer, as mentioned by others, is the weird thing with the body suit vs. hat having the wrong requirements, which is why I'm looking at those.
 
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Steve Trewartha
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Since this thread was made about a year and a half ago, I believe Adam has said in an interview that spiders and antelopes don't exist in the same area because the spiders eat all of the antelopes.
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