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Subject: Adjusted Scrimmage game strategy deck rss

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Erik Kjerland
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In another thread Mike asked about limiting the Epic Fail Lost Momentum combo.
This prompts me to start this thread about an idea I've been formulating over the past several weeks. I'd like to get everyone's feedback on this.

To speed the game while teaching new players the Scrimmage rules, I'm thinking about removing a few more cards from Scrimmage play. This would speed teaching the game, because you have to explain fewer cards. It would also make a player's first game lighter as these cards are a bit more complicated. Also, some of these are gotcha cards that may be better suited to experienced coaches than newbies.

So, what do you think about removing the following cards from the deck during Scrimmage and/or teaching games?

Brutal Spike (already removed for Scrimmage)
Unexpected Spike (already removed for Scrimmage)
Shot Clock
Lost Momentum
Epic Fail
Fumble
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Mike Beiter
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I like that idea. We have yet to use, Shot Clock. It is extremely situational.
 
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Alex Martinez
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I wouldn't remove any, but you can customize to your choosing.

SHOT CLOCK to me though is an important card that discourages players from hogging the ball. I wouldn't remove that one.
 
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Mike Beiter
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KingCroc wrote:
I wouldn't remove any, but you can customize to your choosing.

SHOT CLOCK to me though is an important card that discourages players from hogging the ball. I wouldn't remove that one.


Do you feel removing it would change that? My players never hold it. They always pick it up with the intent of throwing it, so they never have to worry about getting stuck with it.
 
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Alex Martinez
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
KingCroc wrote:
I wouldn't remove any, but you can customize to your choosing.

SHOT CLOCK to me though is an important card that discourages players from hogging the ball. I wouldn't remove that one.


Do you feel removing it would change that? My players never hold it. They always pick it up with the intent of throwing it, so they never have to worry about getting stuck with it.


It would depend entirely on the style of your players. Shot Clock isn't there just to be used, but as a threat to encourage players to keep the ball in motion. In most my games, it isn't used very much, but its effects are felt.

If players naturally keep shooting the ball then it isn't necessary. But some players might be tempted to hold onto it if they're in the lead. That's why Shot Clock exists. Whether your group is comprised of any players like that is probably the deciding factor.
 
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Mike Beiter
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I get what you are saying, but I still question if it really is a factor or not.
How often are coaches seeing situations where they are tempted to keep the ball in someones hands?

Like, if it was removed, would players suddenly start holding onto the ball regularly? Will the game become keep away?

I feel that in nearly all instances, the ball will be picked up and thrown, either as a pass, spike or goal.
It would be a very rare instance where a player chooses to hold the ball.

Again, I get what you are saying, you may get that tank of a butcher who hogs the ball and tries to keep it out of the enemy razors hands to stop them from scoring.

I just feel that that would be super rare to the point where including it in a training match is unnecessary.
That seems like an advanced strategy.

I am not convinced removing it from a scrimmage match with first time players would have any game altering play changes.
 
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Alex Martinez
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
I get what you are saying, but I still question if it really is a factor or not.
How often are coaches seeing situations where they are tempted to keep the ball in someones hands?

Like, if it was removed, would players suddenly start holding onto the ball regularly? Will the game become keep away?

I feel that in nearly all instances, the ball will be picked up and thrown, either as a pass, spike or goal.
It would be a very rare instance where a player chooses to hold the ball.

Again, I get what you are saying, you may get that tank of a butcher who hogs the ball and tries to keep it out of the enemy razors hands to stop them from scoring.

I just feel that that would be super rare to the point where including it in a training match is unnecessary.
That seems like an advanced strategy.

I am not convinced removing it from a scrimmage match with first time players would have any game altering play changes.


If players are throwing the ball around, it really doesn't matter. But Shot Clock isn't a complicated card. Still, if your goal is just to teach someone the game, do whatever you thinks work.
 
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Erik Kjerland
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From all the games I've watched, I don't think removing Shot Clock from a teaching game would have any impact. I don't think I've ever seen any first-time player realize that ball-hogging can be an effective strategy for the leader.
 
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Trent Y.
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shot clock, As a card in hand, it's a waste. It's tying up valuable hand space.

I would just pull them all out and distribute them out of hand to players. Each player can use one once per match. Or treat it like a token. Or have another ball get launched out making the old ball disqualified if a shot is scored with the new ball.
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Erik Kjerland
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Trent, I agree that not all cards are created equal. And Shot Clock is one of the most specific reactive cards and is thus rarely used. In a Scrimmage game, they likely have minimal use.

However, in Exhibition and League games, where there are skills that enable you to sacrifice cards, less-powerful cards can be more helpful. In Exh/League games, it's often a relief to see a card you don't care about and are willing to sacrifice.

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Trent Y.
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ErikFrog wrote:
Trent, I agree that not all cards are created equal. And Shot Clock is one of the most specific reactive cards and is thus rarely used. In a Scrimmage game, they likely have minimal use.

However, in Exhibition and League games, where there are skills that enable you to sacrifice cards, less-powerful cards can be more helpful. In Exh/League games, it's often a relief to see a card you don't care about and are willing to sacrifice.



The way I see it, sacrificing cards should always be a hard decision. If there is a card that's always the easy choice, then that's not really a much of a choice.
 
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Alex Martinez
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Sarimrune wrote:
ErikFrog wrote:
Trent, I agree that not all cards are created equal. And Shot Clock is one of the most specific reactive cards and is thus rarely used. In a Scrimmage game, they likely have minimal use.

However, in Exhibition and League games, where there are skills that enable you to sacrifice cards, less-powerful cards can be more helpful. In Exh/League games, it's often a relief to see a card you don't care about and are willing to sacrifice.



The way I see it, sacrificing cards should always be a hard decision. If there is a card that's always the easy choice, then that's not really a much of a choice.


The fact that some choices are obvious that doesn't equal weak game design.

Also, I like Shot Clock, like Distracted Ref, as a potential threat. Without it, the game becomes less interesting. Also, giving everyone a copy of either would reduce it from a potential threat to a certainty, which would change gameplay significantly.
 
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ogmund prime
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I'm ok with the added omissions. My only worry is that scrimmage becomes so vanilla that new players are turned off before exploring the deeper playing options. On the other hand, having fewer cards to read/interpret/clarify/explain means faster gameplay.
 
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ogmund prime
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As for "Shot Clock", it has more use than you might think. You don't need to have an opponent's athlete holding the ball. Read the last sentence on the card. If the ball is loose and far from my athletes I can choose to relaunch. If I'm in last place, with a lucky launch scatter or high ball scatter I can suddenly have the slaughterball at the feet of my razor!
 
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Trent Y.
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ogmundprime wrote:
As for "Shot Clock", it has more use than you might think. You don't need to have an opponent's athlete holding the ball. Read the last sentence on the card. If the ball is loose and far from my athletes I can choose to relaunch. If I'm in last place, with a lucky launch scatter or high ball scatter I can suddenly have the slaughterball at the feet of my razor!


Still a bit situational. That's great if you act next in the turn, but if you've already activated...or if another team acts next and can get the ball before you...or if it doesn't land close to your figures...

The concept of Shot Clock is needed in the game. It's a highly situational card that barely gets played. Some form of shot clock needs to exist, to keep the game in line with it's 'high octane' focus. I happen to believe that it doesn't need to be tying up space in one's hand.
 
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Erik Kjerland
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Sarimrune wrote:
ErikFrog wrote:
Trent, I agree that not all cards are created equal. And Shot Clock is one of the most specific reactive cards and is thus rarely used. In a Scrimmage game, they likely have minimal use.

However, in Exhibition and League games, where there are skills that enable you to sacrifice cards, less-powerful cards can be more helpful. In Exh/League games, it's often a relief to see a card you don't care about and are willing to sacrifice.



The way I see it, sacrificing cards should always be a hard decision. If there is a card that's always the easy choice, then that's not really a much of a choice.


Trent, I think sacrificing a card should often be a hard decision, but not 100% of the time. The cost/reward of sacrificing cards for different skills varies. Some skills are more helpful at times than others, but if you have an easily sacrificed card, it might prompt you to do something you might not otherwise have done. Having a range of card "values" encourages a wider range of strategies and decisions.
 
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