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Subject: Legacy Game... replay possible? rss

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Day Life
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I'm not a big fan of "legacy games" myself... especially games where once you play the game you can not "reset" it.

Can you "reset" the game to play again from scratch?

Is it a true legacy game (booo) or it is just a misison tree campign you can work though (yay)?

 
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Ben Rubinstein

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You won't like it. It's a Legacy game.
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Charlie Roselius
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It is a true legacy game, there is no reset available. Replay will not be possible with normal play.

However, there will evidently be some form of play after the campaign is complete.
 
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Day Life
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ok... thanks guys... this is a hard pass for me then... pity...
 
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David G. Cox Esq.
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Jozrael wrote:
It is a true legacy game, there is no reset available. Replay will not be possible with normal play.

However, there will evidently be some form of play after the campaign is complete.


How does that work?

You start as a four player for example. Only those four can play? People can't drop out for a few plays? New players can't join in?

 
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Joel H
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da pyrate wrote:
Jozrael wrote:
It is a true legacy game, there is no reset available. Replay will not be possible with normal play.

However, there will evidently be some form of play after the campaign is complete.


How does that work?

You start as a four player for example. Only those four can play? People can't drop out for a few plays? New players can't join in?


While there are provisions if someone has to miss a game here or there, it is definitely designed to be played by the same group of players every game.
Here are some links to give you some more information, if you're interested.
Welcome sheet
Rules
How to Play video
 
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Jeff M
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From reviews I've seen/read, you need a dedicated group of gamers willing to meet on a regular basis to make it through a 15 to 20 game campaign, each game lasting between approx. 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours depending on how large your group is and how fast they play.
Adding new players to the group does not sound like an option.
Missing a couple games sounds problematic.
 
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In service to the Imperium of Man
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Adding new players (up to the maximum of five) is supported in the rules; basically you just give them a campaign score equal to the lowest player minus 1 and give them all the end-of-game upgrades they would have earned if they had played the whole campaign. (Including a few upgrades reserved for game winners, to simulate this new player winning a few.)

But these rules do acknowledge that it's best to play with the same people every time and that adding/dropping people should be a rare and exceptional event. They also advise that some groups may not want to allow new players to join after a specific chest has been unlocked, but do not say what's in that chest.
 
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Clinton Rice
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DayinDaLife wrote:
ok... thanks guys... this is a hard pass for me then... pity...


Sorry you feel that way. For most of us, it's the appeal of a game narrative that grows and adapts and is affected by your actions and becomes a truly unique game, different from any other copy of the game that makes it special. We are excited to see how the game grows and changes over the course of approximately fifteen sessions.

This game allows you to take ownership of it in a way few other games can. It's like the difference between taking a picture with your smartphone or painting a picture. Sure you can delete the photograph and take a new one if you don't like it, but the painting has life of its own. It grew from you. It's personal and its permanence gives it weight.

If the game as presented in the rulebook was a static game, played every time with the same setup, the same rules, and no surprises, it might be fun to play a couple times but I don't think I would play it fifteen times.

Before you decide that a legacy game with a limited number of sessions is a hard pass, you should consider how many big box games in your collection you have played fifteen or more times. If you discover that few have reached that milestone, you might see that being a legacy game could mean the promise of more rather than less play.
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KoalaXav wrote:
Before you decide that a legacy game with a limited number of sessions is a hard pass, you should consider how many big box games in your collection you have played fifteen or more times. If you discover that few have reached that milestone, you might see that being a legacy game could mean the promise of more rather than less play.

I'm okay with legacy games being a hard pass for someone. Some people don't want to play that kind of game and it's okay. There are plenty of games that are a hard pass for me because of theme, mechanics, or something else. I have examined my reasons for passing on those games and I'm lukewarm-to-cold on people trying to change my mind. I have no desire to put someone else through the same thing by convincing them to give legacy games a try.

It's when people say that legacy games shouldn't exist at all that I get annoyed. But that hasn't happened in this thread yet.
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Becq Starforged
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Looking at the economics of a legacy game that gets "used up" in about 15 plays:

A group of us are splitting the cost of the game, so it's going to cost us each about $15 -- or about $1 per person per game. That may well be the best cost per replay of any game in my collection. If I decide I want to replay it, I can always get another 15 games of SeaFall for another $1 per game.

I've played arcade games lasting mere minutes that cost more...
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David G. Cox Esq.
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I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.


 
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Fito R
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da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.


To be certain, this particular game is also infinitely replayable once finished, but it might still be suggested to stick with the same players for consistency. It's just that you can't start from zero, you end up with a complete board and upgrades and so on that are fixed.

Of the three Legacy games designed by Daviau, only Pandemic is a "closed" game that ends and cannot be replayed once finished.
 
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da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.




2000?!!! Holly crap!
 
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Becq Starforged
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slydog75 wrote:
da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.




2000?!!! Holly crap!

Yeah, that's an impressive return on investment even assuming a couple hundred dollars worth of expansions! My guess is that's highly unusual even among serious gamers, but then I tend toward variety rather than repetition.
 
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Jeff Connell
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da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.




I question the 2,000 but ok.
 
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David G. Cox Esq.
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jsc19702 wrote:
da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.




I question the 2,000 but ok.


Your scepticism is fine.

I own over 1,000 games. I play often. My friends and family really like ticket to ride.

200 plays a year over ten years is not implausible. We have been known to play the game nine times in a single day.

I think the figure may be closer to 3,000 but didn't want to skite.

gulp

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Shelby Babb
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ElAdoranSureshot wrote:

I'm okay with legacy games being a hard pass for someone. Some people don't want to play that kind of game and it's okay.


Quoted For Truth.

It's like there's this disconnect that neither side is willing to acknowledge....

How People Who Don't Want a Legacy Game Sound to People Who Do

I only buy twenty five cent Ramen noodles to eat, because I can't imagine spending money on food I only ever get to enjoy once, but since I have to eat I do so in the cheapest manner possible because I have to. I never go to concerts or movies or waste gas going to do something with my friends, because everything costs money and I only get to do it once. I have a huge game collection though, with everything sleeved, including the boxes (I open them, sleeve everything, and then reseal it in plastic for protection).

How People Who Want a Legacy Game Sound to People Who Don't

I just got The Others: 7 Sins. Great game! I wrote names for all the Faith characters on their boards, making them unique. Meanwhile the Sins player was busy writing names for all the blocks on the tiles. It was a close game, I lost three of my Faith team and had to tear up their boards and upgrade cards, while melting their figs on the stove, but we beat Wrath! It was kind of hard watching my opponent throw all those minis and cards in the trash since I'd have liked to try fighting Wrath again, but that's what made the experience so rewarding! I can't wait to try the next scenario, now that we can never go back and replay the first one again (which I'm pretty sure we got some rules confused on, but what's done is done). But if we -really- want to do it again, we can just go buy another copy of the game!

How People Who Can't Decide If They Want a Legacy Game Sound to People Who Have Already Made Up Their Mind

Can I play with the same game in any shape or form after the campaign ends?
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da pyrate wrote:
jsc19702 wrote:
da pyrate wrote:
I did the math and it seems good value, but not quite as good as my Ticket to Ride which has had over 2000 plays.

Thanks for the excellent answers. Good information is always appreciated.




I question the 2,000 but ok.


Your scepticism is fine.

I own over 1,000 games. I play often. My friends and family really like ticket to ride.

200 plays a year over ten years is not implausible. We have been known to play the game nine times in a single day.

I think the figure may be closer to 3,000 but didn't want to skite.

gulp


I'll humor you and pretend that you're not rounding up to the nearest 1,000 --

Surely if you own over 1,000 games, you're not truly concerned about buying a game that you'll probably only play 15-20 times. You'd have to play approximately 3 different games per day to play every one of those games once per year, and that's on top of the 200+ annual TTR plays you're claiming.

With a collection that big, the question should really be "is this game good enough to EVER make it to the table?" That, and possibly "is there enough room left in my underground game storage vault for one more?"
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Clinton Rice
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ElAdoranSureshot wrote:

I'm okay with legacy games being a hard pass for someone. Some people don't want to play that kind of game and it's okay.


Understood, but I wasn't exactly twisting his arm. I only wanted to offer some insight. There are certainly game mechanics I don't like, but I have actually tried these mechanics before deciding they are not right for me. This is a different situation. The majority of people claiming they don't like legacy games have, I suspect, never played or owned a legacy game. At that point having a greater understanding of the subject could be meaningful. If not for the person I am replying to, it might mean something to the next person who reads this that is on the fence. For their sake, we shouldn't let "hard pass" be the final answer.
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Becq Starforged
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da pyrate wrote:
Your scepticism is fine.

I own over 1,000 games. I play often. My friends and family really like ticket to ride.

200 plays a year over ten years is not implausible. We have been known to play the game nine times in a single day.

I think the figure may be closer to 3,000 but didn't want to skite.

I'll accept your number as accurate. But perhaps the more important question is this: of your 1000 games, how many of them have you played more than, say, 15-20 times? Ticket to Ride certainly counts, but how many others?

For me, that fraction is fairly low. Maybe 10-20%? Maybe it's higher for you. But have you played over half of your games more than 20 times each? Don't forget to budget 200 plays for games with 9 expansions, since each expansion counts as another game in BGGs records! So you're probably looking for somewhere around 15000 plays for those 500 favorite games from your collection.

Even if you have, I don't that most gamers could say likewise. For most of us, I think 15 plays puts the game well over the median.
 
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drewhauge wrote:

With a collection that big, the question should really be "is this game good enough to EVER make it to the table?" That, and possibly "is there enough room left in my underground game storage vault for one more?"


Adding on to that, the simplest way to evaluate any entertainment is value (which can vary for some people). In its simplest form the question is what is it costing you per person per hour. (Obviously an economic based decision). At,

2.5 hours
15 missions (quote from above)
5 players
$80 retail

You are paying roughly $0.43 per person per hour. There are truly limited forms of entertainment that provide that value.

Are there more valuable games that you can buy for your group? Potentially, but it's tough to dismiss something that is so much more efficient than the vast majority of entertainment.
 
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Cone Defense wrote:

Are there more valuable games that you can buy for your group? Potentially, but it's tough to dismiss something that is so much more efficient than the vast majority of entertainment.


Your math is sound, but it's only valid if the game gets played to through the campaign. But if we assume 15 plays of a Legacy game, it's fair to assume 15 plays of another non-Legacy game. Except almost any non-Legacy game has an infinite number of plays in it (or, if you prefer, at least more than 15). At which point the value of pretty much any other game is going to be better than a Legacy game.

Which isn't to say people shouldn't buy Legacy games. Different tastes and all that. But there's nothing objectively good or bad one way or the other. It's just a question of what you want to throw your money at.
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San Dee Jota wrote:
Cone Defense wrote:

Are there more valuable games that you can buy for your group? Potentially, but it's tough to dismiss something that is so much more efficient than the vast majority of entertainment.


Your math is sound, but it's only valid if the game gets played to through the campaign. But if we assume 15 plays of a Legacy game, it's fair to assume 15 plays of another non-Legacy game. Except almost any non-Legacy game has an infinite number of plays in it (or, if you prefer, at least more than 15). At which point the value of pretty much any other game is going to be better than a Legacy game.

Which isn't to say people shouldn't buy Legacy games. Different tastes and all that. But there's nothing objectively good or bad one way or the other. It's just a question of what you want to throw your money at.


It does seem like a legacy game is more likely to hit its full 15 games than another non-legacy game though. The fact that the game is new each time you play tends to pull players through the campaign in a way that non-legacy games do not necessarily.
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David G. Cox Esq.
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drewhauge wrote:

With a collection that big, the question should really be "is this game good enough to EVER make it to the table?" That, and possibly "is there enough room left in my underground game storage vault for one more?"


You are a clever dude. The first question is right on the money.


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