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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Rules

Subject: Goblin "Cave-In" Secret rss

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Kevin Green
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Is this card as powerful at stopping the dragon as it seems? Can a goblin player with an Eye Tribe population of 3, for example, remove 3 tiles around the entrance, almost completely cutting it off?

This means also that a split in the cave only happens if a tile is completely cut off. In this example no action is taken to merge the cave back together because the entrance is not completely separate from the rest of the tiles.

Is all that right? This is all during the collapse.
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David Fenton
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kmancheese wrote:
Is this card as powerful at stopping the dragon as it seems? Can a goblin player with an Eye Tribe population of 3, for example, remove 3 tiles around the entrance, almost completely cutting it off?

This means also that a split in the cave only happens if a tile is completely cut off. In this example no action is taken to merge the cave back together because the entrance is not completely separate from the rest of the tiles.

Is all that right? This is all during the collapse.

That sounds correct, though the Dragon could always fly around to the connecting piece, or collapse tiles itself (using Wrath to destroy the connecting tile, creating a split, and moving the now floating Entrance tile adjacent to it). The Dragon flies so fast that this technique would probably only give the Goblins one extra turn or so. And collapsing a tile that the Dragon is on gives it a free move in the direction of its choice (following movement rules and avoiding attacks), so if adjacent to the Entrance, the Dragon may win right there.

It could also destroy a few more tiles (making the map into a "C" shape) leaving Goblins to take the long way around (very likely through Lit tiles if this is during the Collapse).
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Kevin Green
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dsdhornet wrote:

That sounds correct, though the Dragon could always fly around to the connecting piece, or collapse tiles itself (using Wrath to destroy the connecting tile), creating a split and moving the Entrance tile adjacent to it.
By "fly around" you just mean trudging the long way, right? The dragon doesn't have any way to get through the blank spaces. The dragon will also have to light tiles along the way and move one space per wing card through walls assuming the dragon is surfaced by then.
 
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David Fenton
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kmancheese wrote:
dsdhornet wrote:

That sounds correct, though the Dragon could always fly around to the connecting piece, or collapse tiles itself (using Wrath to destroy the connecting tile), creating a split and moving the Entrance tile adjacent to it.
By "fly around" you just mean trudging the long way, right? The dragon doesn't have any way to get through the blank spaces. The dragon will also have to light tiles along the way and move one space per wing card through walls assuming the dragon is surfaced by then.

Correct, though based on experience most tiles near the entrance will be already Lit that late in the game (as the Dragon explores and looks for Event tiles). Since the Dragon is the only one aligning tiles as he explores (in a Dragon vs Goblin game), leaving himself a maze near the Entrance is a bit silly. Including a Wing Dragon Gem (which the Dragon should definitely keep dropping), a Dragon late in the game likely has 3-4 moves per turn (including 1x base move, 1x Gem, and 1-2x Wing cards). The "longest possible way" is only 8 tiles, and every time a Dragon flies over a wall, it makes it hard for Goblins to get to him, as Goblins are the only player that can't cross walls (unless they have a specific monster).

If the Goblins collapse the tiles too early, the Dragon can just make a detour around it (or Surface at a different Crystal). If the Goblins wait, the Dragon might make it adjacent to the Entrance tile (in which case it's too late to use).
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Patrick Leder
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One or turn burns will solve most of these issues too.
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Kevin Green
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Cool, thanks!
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Quote:
The Dragon flies so fast that this technique would probably only give the Goblins one extra turn or so.

My last game came down to one turn, so...
 
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David Fenton
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kc2dpt wrote:
Quote:
The Dragon flies so fast that this technique would probably only give the Goblins one extra turn or so.

My last game came down to one turn, so...

True, though the Dragon flying over a single wall and blocking off the Goblins can give it an extra turn instead too.
 
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Patrick Leder
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I played 2 games over the weekend and the Dragon used Wrath to make the edge of the board ragged in one of the games. I ended up spending a turn just getting rid of pieces that touched single edges which delayed the game end a turn. I think if he had done it again the game would have turned out differently but I still managed to collapse in time.
 
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bob atkins
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another question about this card: can it target crystal tiles that had their crystal destroyed?
 
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Kyle
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varoan wrote:
another question about this card: can it target crystal tiles that had their crystal destroyed?
Yes, that's why the card says you cannot target crystal tokens rather than saying crystal tiles.

Caving-in those counts toward the 5 the Cave needs to win, even if the collapse hasn't begun yet.
 
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Roger Bartels
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Am I correct in understanding that it is possible to completely cut the dragon off during the collapse? For example, if the goblin player removes the only tile connecting the dragon's location to the entrance, is it impossible for the dragon to make it to the entrance tile?
 
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Kyle
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Lemonpips wrote:
Am I correct in understanding that it is possible to completely cut the dragon off during the collapse? For example, if the goblin player removes the only tile connecting the dragon's location to the entrance, is it impossible for the dragon to make it to the entrance tile?
If the map is separated you still need to slide the pieces back together even if open edges will not be filled.

If there is no clear path for the surfaced Dragon through lit tiles, it will need to use Flame/Scorch/Burn to reveal dark tiles in its way, and/or Wing cards to to hop over walls. Wrath will also sometimes work to remove tiles to make the trip shorter.

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Roger Bartels
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Woelf wrote:
Lemonpips wrote:
Am I correct in understanding that it is possible to completely cut the dragon off during the collapse? For example, if the goblin player removes the only tile connecting the dragon's location to the entrance, is it impossible for the dragon to make it to the entrance tile?
If the map is separated you still need to slide the pieces back together even if open edges will not be filled.

If there is no clear path for the surfaced Dragon through lit tiles, it will need to use Flame/Scorch/Burn to reveal dark tiles in its way, and/or Wing cards to to hop over walls. Wrath will also sometimes work to remove tiles to make the trip shorter.



I'm a bit confused then. My reading of page 10 of the rulebook leads me to conclude that sliding the map together only occurs if the tiles are removed before the cave begins to collapse. The rules explicitly state that such is the case when tiles are removed before the collapse, but the same rule is not present under the description for what happens during the collapse.

On a related note, if two larger sections of the map are connected by a single tile, which in this case is touching only two tiles, can that tile be removed by the cave player after the tiles touching only one other tile are removed? If so, what happens to the separated sections? The rule for sliding tiles is listed in the "other players" section of page 10, making it a bit unclear (to me, anyway) how the cave player should handle such situations.

If the rules about sliding tiles to cover created gaps apply to both the cave player and to situations during the collapse, I would not expect them to be nested under subsections about "other players" and "before the collapse." If I missed something else in the rulebook that clarifies these issues, please direct me.
 
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Kyle
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The same rules apply no matter when the separation happens. The only difference is in what you do with the tiles removed and the open edges that are created. Before the collapse, the affected tiles (minus crystal tiles) are placed back on the bottom of the tile stack, and open edges are then refilled immediately after you've reconnected the map. Once the collapse has begun, all affected tiles are removed from the game and you do not refill open edges, but the map still needs to be reconnected before continuing.

It's uncommon, but still very much possible, for the map to be separated during the normal collapsing of tiles, but even then you follow the same procedure, and must slide the map back together before continuing.


The rules for reconnecting the map have been clarified in much more detail (with examples) in the revised rule book. You can find it at the following link, in the "Second printing - revision 3" folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B8xlQYyEm7zMfndS...
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Roger Bartels
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Woelf wrote:
The same rules apply no matter when the separation happens. The only difference is in what you do with the tiles removed and the open edges that are created. Before the collapse, the affected tiles (minus crystal tiles) are placed back on the bottom of the tile stack, and open edges are then refilled immediately after you've reconnected the map. Once the collapse has begun, all affected tiles are removed from the game and you do not refill open edges, but the map still needs to be reconnected before continuing.

It's uncommon, but still very much possible, for the map to be separated during the normal collapsing of tiles, but even then you follow the same procedure, and must slide the map back together before continuing.


The rules for reconnecting the map have been clarified in much more detail (with examples) in the revised rule book. You can find it at the following link, in the "Second printing - revision 3" folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B8xlQYyEm7zMfndS...


Ok, thanks for all the info!
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