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Subject: Daoloth and Y'golonac rules rss

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Philip Dale
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I know everyone's attention is focused upon Gods War right now, but how about a little Onslaught Two discussion!

I wasn't sure that anyone would see this post in the forum for Ramsey Campbell Pack Two, so I'm posting it here.

Firstly, I wanted a clarification about Y'golonac's ability; does Y'golonac have the ability to take possession of monsters and cultists or just monsters? I'm guessing it's the latter [edit: I meant to say former, l.o.l.] but I would appreciate it if this were clarified.

Secondly, I thought about an interesting addendum to Daoloth's ability to create gates where they don't exist that could make it a useful GOO not only for Opener of the Way, but also against Opener. Under the current rules, Daoloth just opens a gate in every area it enters, if I'm not mistaken. What if it also CLOSES gates in areas it enters that already have gates? This would give other factions in games that have Opener a greater incentive not only to get Daoloth themselves so Opener doesn't get it, but to make use of it themselves not just to build gates but to deploy as a potential weapon against enemy factions. What do other people think?
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Tiago Gouveia
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PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I know everyone's attention is focused upon Gods War right now, but how about a little Onslaught Two discussion!

I wasn't sure that anyone would see this post in the forum for Ramsey Campbell Pack Two, so I'm posting it here.

Firstly, I wanted a clarification about Y'golonac's ability; does Y'golonac have the ability to take possession of monsters and cultists or just monsters? I'm guessing it's the latter but I would appreciate it if this were clarified.

Secondly, I thought about an interesting addendum to Daoloth's ability to create gates where they don't exist that could make it a useful GOO not only for Opener of the Way, but also against Opener. Under the current rules, Daoloth just opens a gate in every area it enters, if I'm not mistaken. What if it also CLOSES gates in areas it enters that already have gates? This would give other factions in games that have Opener a greater incentive not only to get Daoloth themselves so Opener doesn't get it, but to make use of it themselves not just to build gates but to deploy as a potential weapon against enemy factions. What do other people think?


Over powered
 
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Chase Norton
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Yeah, I think that could seriously handicap Opener. Daoloth would be an absolute must buy for Opener or he will simply no longer have a say if he wins or not.
 
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Jim Black
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I agree with overpowered.

I think it would be comparable to Atlach-Nacha hitting the table: every other faction would have to coordinate a way to destroy him before he nuked everyone's gates.
 
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Philip Dale
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The problem is that as of right now Daoloth is way, way more advantageous to Opener than it is to anyone else. To me, that already seems unbalanced.

It wouldn't be a must-buy either; it would just need to get taken out if deployed offensively against a faction, whether that's Opener or someone else. As it is Opener benefits even if it doesn't own Daoloth as long as whatever faction is using it is building Gates with it. I think using Daoloth in an offensive capacity and leaving it vulnerable to enemy factions, rather than merely hiding it away and letting it quietly build Gates for ones own faction, would be a tremendous risk: so basically high risk, high reward. Not to mention that losing Daoloth could result in someone else awakening Daoloth and either doing the same to your gates or playing defensively with it and holding onto Daoloth for the game's remainder.

Hastur666 wrote:
I think it would be comparable to Atlach-Nacha hitting the table: every other faction would have to coordinate a way to destroy him before he nuked everyone's gates.

Well, to me a gate-creating, gate-destroying Independent GOO sounds like a ton of fun!

One thing that should be noticed is that Daoloth ALWAYS creates a Gate when moving into an area without one and ALWAYS closes a Gate when moving into an area with one, so I think the mechanic is a lot more balanced than you think.
 
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PhilyFooFighter wrote:
The problem is that as of right now Daoloth is way, way more advantageous to Opener than it is to anyone else. To me, that already seems unbalanced.

[...] As it is Opener benefits even if it doesn't own Daoloth as long as whatever faction is using it is building Gates with it. [...]

Opener benefits from each and every Gate that is created on the map, no matter how expensive it was for the faction that built it. Other factions naturally need Gates, too, so apart from maybe some 3-player games with Yellow Sign, sooner or later there will inevitably be more than 12 Gates on the map and Opener of the Way will get his Spellbook.

Therefore, the player who benefits the most from Daoloth's current ability is in my opinion Daoloth's owner, as he's saving a massive 3 Power per Gate - plus some time, as you don't have to spend an extra turn to build it. Let a group of Cultists travel together with Daoloth, and you can occupy each newly-created Gate immediately. It's true that this may also slightly accelerate Opener's Spellbook acquisition, but I still think that the biggest advantage lies with Daoloth's master, who has a fair amount of Power available for getting Monsters, GOOs or Spellbooks while still preparing a huge Power and Doom income for the next Round.
 
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Philip Dale
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DrGosburoCoffin wrote:
PhilyFooFighter wrote:
The problem is that as of right now Daoloth is way, way more advantageous to Opener than it is to anyone else. To me, that already seems unbalanced.

[...] As it is Opener benefits even if it doesn't own Daoloth as long as whatever faction is using it is building Gates with it. [...]

Opener benefits from each and every Gate that is created on the map, no matter how expensive it was for the faction that built it. Other factions naturally need Gates, too, so apart from maybe some 3-player games with Yellow Sign, sooner or later there will inevitably be more than 12 Gates on the map and Opener of the Way will get his Spellbook.

I agree with you about Opener benefiting anytime anyone opens a Gate ever, and I also agree that the person who benefits most from Daoloth is its owner, but as someone who plays Opener of the Way (or Yellow Sign) most of the time, I can tell you that WHEN Opener gets all its spell-books makes a big difference and also that it is NOT a certainty that Opener gets all its spell-books in games with lower player counts unless Opener is actively attempting to expand its gate network beyond what it strictly "needs" to reach 30 doom before everyone else, just like Cthulhu needs to focus extra on Combat, Crawling Chaos needs to focus extra on Power, etc.. That's just another part of the strategy of playing Opener (and I almost always win, even when playing two-player, so I'm perfectly happy with Opener's spell-book requirements).

But as someone who mains Opener, I can certainly say that Daoloth favors Opener second if not first no matter who owns it under the current rules, and worst of all in my opinion is that only Opener has reason to run crazy with Daoloth whereas every other faction benefits most from keeping Daoloth restrained and making use of its abilities only as needed.

With the slight rules change, all of a sudden not only do factions other than Opener have reason to (potentially) let Daoloth loose across the map but also Daoloth becomes as much a threat to Opener as it is a possible boon. Giving Daoloth the ability to close Gates as well as open them increases the number of strategic options available to factions using Daoloth and makes Daoloth equally useful to all factions no matter who owns it, whereas right now Daoloth is useful to whoever owns it but more useful to Opener when it owns it than anyone else.

Finally, in terms of fun I think Daoloth being able to close Gates makes it more fun for non-Opener factions than it would otherwise be.
 
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PhilyFooFighter wrote:
[...] and also that it is NOT a certainty that Opener gets all its spell-books in games with lower player counts unless Opener is actively attempting to expand its gate network beyond what it strictly "needs" to reach 30 doom before everyone else [...]

I have to admit that we mostly have five or more players at the table (and we never had fewer than four players since the expansions arrived), so I probably wasn't as aware of this factor as I should have been. In our group, the two Spellbook requirements that are related to the number of Gates are usually fulfilled early in round 2 at the latest, and that certainly influenced my perspective on that faction ...

You really made a strong point with your argumentation, and it's obvious that it's not wise for any faction to use Daoloth for 'spamming' Gates all across the map, especially if they cannot defend them. However, I still think that your proposal would turn this into a very strong ability. In my opinion, the destruction of Gates should remain a very rare event - though it is of course not unheard of that indie GOOs introduce abilities that change the game drastically.

By the way, I'd like to hear your opinion on how your version of Daoloth will influence gameplay on the Primeval Earth map. Battling over the few Gates in 'habitable' areas will probably become even more fierce when the existence of those Gates is endangered ...
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Philip Dale
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Sadly, I do not yet have the Primeval Earth map, so I'm sure my guess about how Daoloth closing gates would affect game-play would be inferior to yours. I would guess that whoever owned Daoloth would attempt to keep a few gates open for her or him-self so that she or he could win, but I can imagine that every other player would want to kill Daoloth as soon as possible. That being said, Daoloth would re-create Gates again if moved onto spaces with no Gates so it can't just hop to a non-adjacent space just to close a gate. In this way I think the ability to both create and close gates when moving to be self-balancing.

I was thinking though that if Daoloth can close gates then a good example of how it could be useful to other factions would be Yellow Sign. Suppose the map is already filled up with Gates; under current rules Daoloth's power would be mostly useless. If Yellow Sign has lost the King in Yellow in this scenario, this would normally be far too late in the game to revive the King because he must be awakened in an area without a gate thus making the game potentially impossible to win, but with a little help from Daoloth and the proposed ability to close gates when moved, Yellow Sign could clear an area, re-awaken the King, and finish that last desecration for the sixth spell-book.

Of course, Daoloth's ability to close gates could be an entirely separate ability; let's say a spell-book that closes gates for 3 power (like Cultists can open gates for 3 power). The problem with this alternative is it would replace whatever spell-book is currently being planned for Daoloth, and as I said because Daoloth is ALWAYS either opening or closing a Gate every time it moves, regardless of whether the owner desires it, I think the ability to close gates would be properly restricted.
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Adam Starks
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Indie GOOs typically don't come out until Turn 3, if not Turn 4. If Opener doesn't already have his 12 Gates requirements by then, it's not far off, and Daoloth isn't much of a boost.

Plus, once Opener has those requirements, it actually hurts him to have more gates around, because it means he can't use Beyond One to steal gates and/or escape from assaults.
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Regarding the Primeval Earth map (which is probably my favourite expansion map, by the way), I think that Daoloth's current ability would be really helpful for Opener there. All factions are usually reluctant to build Gates in areas that can potentially be affected by Glaciers, so it's possible that there'll never be 12 Gates on the map if Opener doesn't make a deliberate effort to build Gates in areas with Glaciers, which are of course far less useful since they can't be controlled. With Daoloth under Opener's control, this effort would obviously be significantly reduced, so this is a map where 'out-of-the-box' Daoloth would certainly benefit Yog-Sothoth's Purple Gang the most.

If Daoloth could also destroy Gates, I suppose that some players wouldn't be too happy if he appeared on the Primeval Earth map. In my experience, the game quickly reaches a point (usually in the third or fourth round) where everybody focuses mainly on conquering the few existing Gates. This is the moment where even the most laid-back players in our group start to turn into sweating, cursing paranoiacs with knives between their teeth ... and I don't want to imagine what the situation would be like if there was a unit on the table that could actually reduce the number of available Gates.

Metagame aside, let's imagine that Sleeper relies on Lethargy until all his opponents are (nearly) out of Power and then uses Daoloth to eat up most of the Gates that are not controlled by himself by just moving him around the map, with no one being able to respond. That would be truly devasting for his opponents, as their options in the next round would be severely limited due to their lack of Power (they also wouldn't get much Doom). Similar results could be achieved by other factions if they managed to accumulate a huge Power surplus over their competitors (e. g. Windwalker via Hibernate, Opener via Dragon Ascending).

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I was thinking though that if Daoloth can close gates then a good example of how it could be useful to other factions would be Yellow Sign. Suppose the map is already filled up with Gates; under current rules Daoloth's power would be mostly useless. If Yellow Sign has lost the King in Yellow in this scenario, this would normally be far too late in the game to revive the King because he must be awakened in an area without a gate thus making the game potentially impossible to win, but with a little help from Daoloth and the proposed ability to close gates when moved, Yellow Sign could clear an area, re-awaken the King, and finish that last desecration for the sixth spell-book.

True, this would be helpful for Yellow Sign, even though we only had one game so far in which such a situation nearly would have occurred for Yellow Sign. On the other hand, what about destroying the Gate in the South Pacific? That would cause massive problems for Great Cthulhu since he couldn't reawaken Cthulhu, if I'm not mistaken. I know that it's possible to do this via The Beyond One as well, but using Daoloth for it would arguably be easier, as just moving him into the area would be enough. With Crawling Chaos's Fly ability, this could happen from nearly anywhere on the map.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
The problem with this alternative is it would replace whatever spell-book is currently being planned for Daoloth, and as I said because Daoloth is ALWAYS either opening or closing a Gate every time it moves, regardless of whether the owner desires it, I think the ability to close gates would be properly restricted.

Just FYI, according to the CW Compendium, the ability to create Gates ('Interdimensional') is supposed to be Daoloth's Spellbook, not his innate ability. That would be 'Cosmic Unity', which prevents one enemy GOO from rolling its Combat Dice. This info is of course not official yet ...

And one more question about your idea for this ability: Daoloth will need a controlled Gate to awaken him. This gate would be destroyed immediately upon his appearance, right?
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Philip Dale
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AdamStarks wrote:
Indie GOOs typically don't come out until Turn 3, if not Turn 4. If Opener doesn't already have his 12 Gates requirements by then, it's not far off, and Daoloth isn't much of a boost.

This is true in games with higher player counts, but not necessarily true in 3- and 2-player games.

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:
Regarding the Primeval Earth map (which is probably my favourite expansion map, by the way), I think that Daoloth's current ability would be really helpful for Opener there.... With Daoloth under Opener's control, this effort would obviously be significantly reduced, so this is a map where 'out-of-the-box' Daoloth would certainly benefit Yog-Sothoth's Purple Gang the most.

Your insight speaks to my current issue with Daoloth; I may main Opener but I'd prefer that Daoloth be equally useful to all factions regardless of who owns it. Personally I'm hoping someone at Petersen Games reads my post and decides to adjust Daoloth accordingly because I honestly think this makes the game more fun. It's true that I can always homebrew my own rules, but I hope this thread gets the attention of Petersen Games because I suspect that my modified rules make Daoloth much more interesting and balanced for the non-Opener factions (and more fun! ).

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:

If Daoloth could also destroy Gates, I suppose that some players wouldn't be too happy if he appeared on the Primeval Earth map. In my experience, the game quickly reaches a point (usually in the third or fourth round) where everybody focuses mainly on conquering the few existing Gates. This is the moment where even the most laid-back players in our group start to turn into sweating, cursing paranoiacs with knives between their teeth ... and I don't want to imagine what the situation would be like if there was a unit on the table that could actually reduce the number of available Gates.

This might be a situation of high risk, high reward. Anyone who attempts to use Daoloth to shut down other people's gates on the Primeval Earth map better be prepared to earn the ire of every other player. ;D Luckily Daoloth creates a new gate every time it is moved into a space without one, so if the owner is unwilling to create new gates Daoloth could end up getting "trapped" in a particular area.

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:

Metagame aside, let's imagine that Sleeper relies on Lethargy until all his opponents are (nearly) out of Power and then uses Daoloth to eat up most of the Gates that are not controlled by himself by just moving him around the map, with no one being able to respond. That would be truly devasting for his opponents, as their options in the next round would be severely limited due to their lack of Power (they also wouldn't get much Doom). Similar results could be achieved by other factions if they managed to accumulate a huge Power surplus over their competitors (e. g. Windwalker via Hibernate, Opener via Dragon Ascending).

I agree that this would have to be tested, but I don't think this would be a game-damaging issue. Daoloth would almost certainly have to go through many spaces without gates to reach the other players' gates, so it would be opening up many new gates in its attempt to close the ones currently controlled by other players. Practically speaking I suspect that players' ability to abuse Daoloth in this way would be limited.

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:

On the other hand, what about destroying the Gate in the South Pacific? That would cause massive problems for Great Cthulhu since he couldn't reawaken Cthulhu, if I'm not mistaken. I know that it's possible to do this via The Beyond One as well, but using Daoloth for it would arguably be easier, as just moving him into the area would be enough. With Crawling Chaos's Fly ability, this could happen from nearly anywhere on the map.

As an Opener player, I can tell you that this would change nothing. Opener can already target Cthulhu's starting-gate from across the map by using They Break Through followed by Beyond One. Daoloth, on the other hand, would either have to be awakened near Cthulhu's starting-area (or at least two spaces away in Crawling Chaos's case) or it wouldn't be able to reach the location of the gate in time without alerting Great Cthulhu (and Daoloth's awakening might alert Great Cthulhu anyway). Personally speaking, I don't see Crawling Chaos's ability to do this more easily as a problem, just an element of good strategy on its part. After all, Great Cthulhu just needs to pay 3 power to put another gate in the area, although hopefully Great Cthulhu will also bring forces to back up the Cultist.

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:

Just FYI, according to the CW Compendium, the ability to create Gates ('Interdimensional') is supposed to be Daoloth's Spellbook, not his innate ability. That would be 'Cosmic Unity', which prevents one enemy GOO from rolling its Combat Dice. This info is of course not official yet ...

Interesting. I'd prefer Cosmic Unity being the spell-book instead though, since thematically the ability to open (or close gates, potentially) would be innate to Daoloth because in the stories it's always expanding.

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:

And one more question about your idea for this ability: Daoloth will need a controlled Gate to awaken him. This gate would be destroyed immediately upon his appearance, right?

As amusingly dramatic as that would be, I would say no, because Daoloth didn't MOVE into the space.
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PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Personally I'm hoping someone at Petersen Games reads my post and decides to adjust Daoloth accordingly because I honestly think this makes the game more fun. It's true that I can always homebrew my own rules, but I hope this thread gets the attention of Petersen Games because I suspect that my modified rules make Daoloth much more interesting and balanced for the non-Opener factions (and more fun! ).

A comment on your proposal from Arthur or Sandy is definitely a very real possibility in these forums.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I agree that this would have to be tested, but I don't think this would be a game-damaging issue. Daoloth would almost certainly have to go through many spaces without gates to reach the other players' gates, so it would be opening up many new gates in its attempt to close the ones currently controlled by other players. Practically speaking I suspect that players' ability to abuse Daoloth in this way would be limited.

I'm afraid you underestimate how claustrophobic the Primeval Earth map can get. I don't have the exact figures available at the moment, but if I remember correctly, there will be no more than ten areas with controllable Gates left when all Glaciers have been placed, and most of them are pretty close to each other. Assuming that Sleeper already controls Gates in two or three of those areas, it wouldn't be that many spaces he needs to go through to destroy the majority of his opponents' Gates. Even with just five Power left when eveybody else is out of Power, he could make sure that the other factions are down to one Gate each. And if he has more Power to spare, he could let Daoloth walk the same path back, this time putting Cultists on the newly created Gates ...
Clearly that's a strong incentive for the other players to not tolerate Sleeper's control over Daoloth.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
As an Opener player, I can tell you that this would change nothing. Opener can already target Cthulhu's starting-gate from across the map by using They Break Through followed by Beyond One. Daoloth, on the other hand, would either have to be awakened near Cthulhu's starting-area (or at least two spaces away in Crawling Chaos's case) or it wouldn't be able to reach the location of the gate in time without alerting Great Cthulhu (and Daoloth's awakening might alert Great Cthulhu anyway). Personally speaking, I don't see Crawling Chaos's ability to do this more easily as a problem, just an element of good strategy on its part. After all, Great Cthulhu just needs to pay 3 power to put another gate in the area, although hopefully Great Cthulhu will also bring forces to back up the Cultist.

I'm aware of the They Break Through-Beyond One combo. It's difficult to counter, but it at least gives Great Cthulhu the chance to drive off or kill the monster that spawned at his home Gate before the Gate is spirited away (assuming of course that he has troops available in the vicinity). In my view, Opener launching the assault combo at GC's home base is much clearer telegraphed than the Daoloth method. I think it's nearly impossible to keep all surrounding areas free of Daoloth if Great Cthulhu doesn't want to tie up all his forces for defensive purposes (which wouldn't exactly help him in following his general game plan).
Maybe it's another matter of my lack of experience with low player counts, but in games with five or more players, there are most likely more immediate threats for Great Cthulhu than someone Awakening Daoloth two spaces away from the South Pacific. Then, one Daoloth move action later, it may already be too late for him to respond effectively to the gate-eater closing in on R'lyeh ...

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
As amusingly dramatic as that would be, I would say no, because Daoloth didn't MOVE into the space.

All right, thanks for the clarification. It's clearly easier this way, but if it were the other way round, it would have required even more strategic consideration where to Awaken Daoloth.


All in all, I'd like to emphasise that I'm not saying your proposal for Daoloth wouldn't be fun. It clearly gives rise to a lot of interesting strategies, as we have discussed here. And I know that all indie GOOs have abilities that suit some factions better than others. But I'm still concerned that your attempt to counter an imbalance introduces an even greater imbalance ...
 
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Philip Dale
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DrGosburoCoffin wrote:
I'm afraid you underestimate how claustrophobic the Primeval Earth map can get. I don't have the exact figures available at the moment, but if I remember correctly, there will be no more than ten areas with controllable Gates left when all Glaciers have been placed, and most of them are pretty close to each other. Assuming that Sleeper already controls Gates in two or three of those areas, it wouldn't be that many spaces he needs to go through to destroy the majority of his opponents' Gates. Even with just five Power left when eveybody else is out of Power, he could make sure that the other factions are down to one Gate each. And if he has more Power to spare, he could let Daoloth walk the same path back, this time putting Cultists on the newly created Gates ...
Clearly that's a strong incentive for the other players to not tolerate Sleeper's control over Daoloth.

I believe you. That being said, Sleeper might not want to close its OWN gates if they're in the way to getting to other people's gates, but not having the Primeval Earth map myself I'm not sure whether that would be an issue or not.

PhilyFooFighter wrote:
I'm aware of the They Break Through-Beyond One combo. It's difficult to counter, but it at least gives Great Cthulhu the chance to drive off or kill the monster that spawned at his home Gate before the Gate is spirited away (assuming of course that he has troops available in the vicinity). In my view, Opener launching the assault combo at GC's home base is much clearer telegraphed than the Daoloth method. I think it's nearly impossible to keep all surrounding areas free of Daoloth if Great Cthulhu doesn't want to tie up all his forces for defensive purposes (which wouldn't exactly help him in following his general game plan). Maybe it's another matter of my lack of experience with low player counts, but in games with five or more players, there are most likely more immediate threats for Great Cthulhu than someone Awakening Daoloth two spaces away from the South Pacific. Then, one Daoloth move action later, it may already be too late for him to respond effectively to the gate-eater closing in on R'lyeh ...

I'm not convinced that such a maneuver with Daoloth would be any harder to respond to unless Great Cthulhu is lacking in experience. All I need as an Opener player is any unit with 3 Combat or more which I can spawn at Cthulhu's gate at any time to pull off They Break Through + Beyond One, whereas the attacking player would either have to move Daoloth all the way across the map to Great Cthulhu's gate, making and unmaking many gates along the way for well or ill, or secure a Gate nearby and awaken Daoloth there before maneuvering it toward Cthulhu's gate. I'll grant though that just like They Break Through + Beyond One that the Great Cthulhu player could be taken by surprise by the move. :3
In either case, I think Great Cthulhu is, thankfully, strong enough to recover from such trickery, and if Daoloth is destroyed in the process I'm sure Great Cthulhu would be eager to return the former owner's "gift" in turn. >

DrGosburoCoffin wrote:
All right, thanks for the clarification. It's clearly easier this way, but if it were the other way round, it would have required even more strategic consideration where to Awaken Daoloth.

All in all, I'd like to emphasise that I'm not saying your proposal for Daoloth wouldn't be fun. It clearly gives rise to a lot of interesting strategies, as we have discussed here. And I know that all indie GOOs have abilities that suit some factions better than others. But I'm still concerned that your attempt to counter an imbalance introduces an even greater imbalance ...

No problem at all! You're extremely polite and, frankly, fun to speak with! The only way to tell if an idea has any legs is to test it, and if it can't survive such testing it must either adapt or rightly be discarded.

Of course I care about the balance issue, but also what is at least as important to me is how "fun" a rule-set is; then again, a game where balance is lacking is, in my opinion, not fun. That's a big issue I have with Gobogeg as the rules exist currently. Not only does Gobogeg blatantly favour Great Cthulhu no matter who owns it, but it also ends the game before anyone can do much with their newly awakend GOOs, which to me is NOT fun. (I'm guessing Sandy thinks it's "fun" though. xD )

But on the other hand Petersen Games may be being TOO conservative with Daoloth, especially if Daoloth's ability to open gates is a spell-book rather than the normal ability. (Daoloth is one of my favourite Mythos beings.)
 
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Unfortunately I don't have time for the elaborate answer you deserve right now. I hope it's sufficient for the moment to say that I'm not much of a Gobogeg fan myself and share your "don't forget the fun" approach. And of course I can only return your kind words! This has been a very enjoyable discussion for me, and I'm glad you seem to share this view.

I must admit that you've nearly won me over by now. Once the OS2 goods are in our hands, I will (hopefully) convince my group to give your Daoloth suggestion a try. Let's see if we like them better than Sandy's solution - whatever it may turn out to be.
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