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Subject: Unneeded labor law that I can support rss

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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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http://www.natlawreview.com/article/seattle-mayor-s-office-p...

Predictable scheduling.

Damn this would have made my life easier when I was younger.

Unfortunately, in my experience, the law is needed because employers are afraid to fire protected classes. Everyone else has to jump through their ass to cover for the protected individual who just decides they'd rather not work that day.

Protected individual could be counted on to be very late or call in sick 2x each week. But by God you'd get bitched at if you didn't break your plans to cover for her/him.

A law to fix a law. But it is a good start.
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Xander Fulton
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You live in a very bizarre world where only "protected classes" are the ones calling off randomly or repeatedly. My experience has almost entirely been the opposite - it's the children of the overly-privileged, at a job for 'work experience'...who don't even need the money...that are the most "reliably unreliable"

In any case - I'm more opposed to this law as I see it hurting business owners a lot more than it's worth. A LOT of retail and service chains are going to fall under its umbrella, whose local stores have maybe 3-4 full time employees, and few more part-time that are generally half 'on call' at any given shift due to the irregularity of demand.

Having to pay on-call staff for just being on-call seems to defeat the purpose of the concept (as used in retail/services) in the first place (IE., you are pretty sure you don't have enough business to pay another person to sit there during those hours, but not ABSOLUTELY sure, and want someone you can reach out to if you need them).

Seriously - retail/service "on-call" is not anything like software engineering or emergency services "on-call" where you literally have to be by your phone 24/7 and available to work at a moments notice. (And even then, Oregon law doesn't require you to pay such employees, either, unless they are required to be LITERALLY ON PREMISE. Of course, most businesses *do* offer bonuses for it, but it's not required.)
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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XanderF wrote:
You live in a very bizarre world where only "protected classes" are the ones calling off randomly or repeatedly. My experience has almost entirely been the opposite - it's the children of the overly-privileged, at a job for 'work experience'...who don't even need the money...that are the most "reliably)


You live in a very bizarre world where rich kids are offered and take jobs just to have it on their resume.

What job is this?
 
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Xander Fulton
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Koldfoot wrote:
XanderF wrote:
You live in a very bizarre world where only "protected classes" are the ones calling off randomly or repeatedly. My experience has almost entirely been the opposite - it's the children of the overly-privileged, at a job for 'work experience'...who don't even need the money...that are the most "reliably)


You live in a very bizarre world where rich kids are offered and take jobs just to have it on their resume.

What job is this?


...

Seriously?

I mean, sure, we're not talking the REALLY, really, rich. Like, Trump's kids. Doubt they ever worked 'retail' jobs, no. But that's, like, top 1% of the top 1%.

Once you are even "all the way down to" the top 5%-income-earning-families...yeah, the kids take summer jobs. At a really high rate, actually.

So...basically normal stuff? Grocery stores, fancy coffee shops, the more high-end retail chains, boutique shops? Pretty high competition where I live is as life guards at the local swim parks, actually.
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Seriously?

All you got is some hypothetical summer job for rich kids?

I do appreciate your perspective, though.

Many of the rest of us work in the service economy to serve you and slater.

I've only worked installing auto glass, numerous warehouses, innumerable convenience stores, retail, nursing homes, been a disc jockey, home health care, swept floors at a big industrial mechanic shop, various nursing jobs, delivered newspapers, and more, none of which was a lifeguard or at high end jewelry shop.

It could very well be that the children of the 1%ers have trouble getting to work. I wouldn't know.

In fact I wouldn't doubt it. For whatever reason some people feel (rightfully) that they can't get fired and expect others to pick up the slack.

Do you disagree that your peers in the swimming pool industry would benefit from the law?

Edit: and after all that it occurred to me that the absolute worst job where malingerers thrive, excel and rise to the top..... In my limited experience... Is.... The US Army.

Not that this law would have any effect.
 
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Guido Van Horn
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On call pay is an interesting development of worker rights. I've worked an on-call position before (unpaid unless I got called, but if I got called it was double time) and the reality is that you have an obligation to abide to and you can be disciplined if you don't abide by it, basically even though you aren't working your job has limited your life, and it is probably more fair than not to be compensated at some level for that inconvenience.
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Xander Fulton
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Koldie, I sometimes wonder if you aren't getting yourself into a fit reading things nobody else wrote.

My job is client services in a software company. I've been customer-facing for what I consider my entire 20+ year professional career, and the early half of that on tech support. Working up from 'helpdesk greeting' level (take name and number and enter a case, grab the next call) to senior levels (in every case with 24/7 on-call demands) until I could get out of that into consulting. Before that (under 18), had the various part-time jobs in school - worked at a (plant) nursery, library, distribution center, etc.

I'm only reporting on what I'm seeing (and, FWIW, hearing - my wife actually DOES work retail, she's been in management at various locations for a decade or more, and now runs her own store).

But both of our experiences end up being reasonably (not completely) comprehensive - between my wife and I, I would guesstimate we've directly managed or been project lead over possibly 300-400 or so people in our careers, between both our positions in Ohio and Oregon. 100% of that in the service sectors - technology for me, retail for my wife.

And I've never seen any kind of pattern at all where (to your OP) the "protected classes" called off work at any higher rate than any other. As noted, the closest thing I could observe to a 'class' of people that call off at a higher rate than others is children of the top-5%-ers. (I'll go ahead and throw you another bone, here, on retrospection - people doing that work as a 2nd job also tended to be pretty "reliably unreliable", as things go. I'll let you guess whether these are your common working-class Americans or a "protected class"....)
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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They don't call in at a higher rate.

But they get fired for doing it.
 
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J J
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Interesting. These sorts of things are standard here across many industries.

Especially in healthcare. As you mention above, you were a nurse, Koldfoot. Is that what you were referring to by "when I was younger"? All of the clauses mentioned (or some version of them), except the last one (preferentially hiring internally over externally) are rock sold foundations of every nursing industrial instrument in Australia - I'm guessing this is not the case in the US.

But even so, hospitals here have no real trouble getting rid of anyone who turns out to be unreliable in the way you're describing.
 
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J
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Koldfoot wrote:
Unfortunately, in my experience, the law is needed because employers are afraid to fire protected classes. Everyone else has to jump through their ass to cover for the protected individual who just decides they'd rather not work that day.

That's a pretty wide swath you are cutting there. These protected classes are only "protected" if they are fired based on their class status. If an employer fires Johnny because he's a Christian, that wouldn't fly. The employer can certainly fire him for habitual tardiness. It needs to be well documented though.

Gender is a protected class, your assertion would include both male and female. There wouldn't be very many people left not in a protected class.

Or did you mean something else?
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Nurses, technicians, pharmacists, people with a license are generally professional. The support staff, aides, housekeepers, cooks, etc (and quite a few doctors) ... much less so.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Koldfoot wrote:
Nurses, technicians, pharmacists, people with a license are generally professional. The support staff, aides, housekeepers, cooks, etc (and quite a few doctors) ... much less so.
Interest5ing as I know a highly qualified technician who skives of as much as he can (and was unable to gt a job he wanted because his work attendance was so bad), and even when he turned up slept as often as he could.

I do not include the former MOD electronics engineer I used to know, this was private sector.

Oddly the people I have seen skive off the least are the unqualified staff, the ones who cannot just walk off a job and get a new one just like that. The worst Skivers are the ones who think they can get a job tomorrow.
 
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J.D. Hall
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I would think (or hope) that the best managers already do this kind of stuff. Managing is, at its core, the ability to motivate, train, and place people in positions where they can do the job effectively and efficiently, and want to come back the next day to do it again. Being an asshole looks funny on TV, but rarely works in real life.

As an aside: my first management job was at the age of 19 -- I ran an A&W Restaurant with 18 employees for almost a year. From 1989 to 2009, I was in management. Learned a lot of hard lessons early.
 
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jeremy cobert
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Quote:
If an affected employee requests a schedule change because of caregiving obligations, a second job, or educational purposes, the employer must grant the request, unless a bona fide reason exists to deny the request (e.g., it interferes with business operations). Employers must be prepared to prove the business justification.


um.. really ? Seriously ? how does this not get abused.
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Junior McSpiffy
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Are we using the word seriously this much? Seriously?















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J J
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jeremycobert wrote:
Quote:
If an affected employee requests a schedule change because of caregiving obligations, a second job, or educational purposes, the employer must grant the request, unless a bona fide reason exists to deny the request (e.g., it interferes with business operations). Employers must be prepared to prove the business justification.


um.. really ? Seriously ? how does this not get abused.


Again, a foundation of our industrial relations laws here. It is presumed that both employer and employee are reasonable people.

Seems to work rather well. What's different about you lot over there? Or are you just not prepared to allow that other people can be reasonable?
 
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Oliver Dienz
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JasonJ0 wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
Quote:
If an affected employee requests a schedule change because of caregiving obligations, a second job, or educational purposes, the employer must grant the request, unless a bona fide reason exists to deny the request (e.g., it interferes with business operations). Employers must be prepared to prove the business justification.


um.. really ? Seriously ? how does this not get abused.


Again, a foundation of our industrial relations laws here. It is presumed that both employer and employee are reasonable people.

Seems to work rather well. What's different about you lot over there? Or are you just not prepared to allow that other people can be reasonable?


In the US it is either win or lose, black or white. Middle ground does not exist.
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Chengkai Yang
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While I had a much longer rant typed up, I realized it wasn't going to be worth the effort so I'm just going to say I've seen what Kobold has mentioned extensively when I was in the public sector. Some of it might have been because of connections, but any system is going to have its abusers, either the employee or the employer. While it's not a 0 sum game, it does seem to be a constant like entropy on any system. That said, the public sector also makes it much harder to fire anyone, and a very good example of promoting people to get rid of them. Either they become someone else's problem or you can heap additional responsibilities on them to the point where their performance reviews might actually be grounds for termination.
 
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jeremy cobert
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JasonJ0 wrote:
What's different about you lot over there?


We have to suffer through the American progressive movement.

JasonJ0 wrote:
Or are you just not prepared to allow that other people can be reasonable?


Are you new here or just never interacted with any of them here in RSP ? No that cant be reasonable. Reason and logic are like deodorant , they avoid it at all cost.
 
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jeremy cobert
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GameCrossing wrote:
Are we using the word seriously this much? Seriously?


Amazing that you manage to miss the only funny seriously meme on the internet.That is seriously messed up.
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andrew
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odie73 wrote:

In the US it is either win or lose, black or white. Middle ground does not exist.


Yeah I got this quite a bit when i was working there.
Being right or moving responsibility is like some sort of national sport. Getting your staff to collaborate on a positive solution is like trying to peace make at a cock fight.
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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antiussentiment wrote:
odie73 wrote:

In the US it is either win or lose, black or white. Middle ground does not exist.


Yeah I got this quite a bit when i was working there.
Being right or moving responsibility is like some sort of national sport. Getting your staff to collaborate on a positive solution is like trying to peace make at a cock fight.


Sounds like people who were wrong all the time.

Judging from your RSP personas, you are arrogantly wrong all the time. Never ever ever ever admit that you weren't an expert on every topic. Not surprised you couldn't hack it.
 
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David desJardins
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XanderF wrote:
In any case - I'm more opposed to this law as I see it hurting business owners a lot more than it's worth. A LOT of retail and service chains are going to fall under its umbrella, whose local stores have maybe 3-4 full time employees, and few more part-time that are generally half 'on call' at any given shift due to the irregularity of demand.


I can't imagine that a typical retail establishment has only 3-4 people working and needs to have another 3-4 people "on call" on every shift just in case those scheduled 3-4 people get too busy. How long would it take for those hypothetical on-call workers to show up? Do you actually have examples of this?
 
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Xander Fulton
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DaviddesJ wrote:
XanderF wrote:
In any case - I'm more opposed to this law as I see it hurting business owners a lot more than it's worth. A LOT of retail and service chains are going to fall under its umbrella, whose local stores have maybe 3-4 full time employees, and few more part-time that are generally half 'on call' at any given shift due to the irregularity of demand.


I can't imagine that a typical retail establishment has only 3-4 people working and needs to have another 3-4 people "on call" on every shift just in case those scheduled 3-4 people get too busy. How long would it take for those hypothetical on-call workers to show up? Do you actually have examples of this?


You misunderstand me. Somehow. 3-4 people total full-time staff, then an equal number of part time (so say 4) of which maybe 2 are on-call.

IE., you've got one or two people working a shift, and another person on-call for the day, with another standby.

That's a pretty standard arrangement for smaller stores. Even for the "larger" ones, the numbers may double or triple, but the ratios stay pretty close to the same.
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