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Subject: Not enough survivors for start of game rss

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Hans Moleman
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I know it's kind of minor but if I play the game without any modules, I'm left with 18 survivors -- Blue (Raxxon) and the Improvement gal character removed.

If I'm playing a 5p game, I can't deal out 4 to each player (at the start of the game) unless I'm playing both modules.

What would be the best solution?
- Just deal out from start player and last 2 dealt picks from 3 and others picks from 4
- All players simply get 3 instead of 4 survivors to pick from
- Throw in both characters, even though there powers would be pointless
- Merge with DOW original characters [if that is an option for some]
- Throw thee game out and bust out monopoly


Topic was touched (in another thread) regarding not enough survivors via outsider cards -- though I'm sure the situation is difficult to attain in a game where 9 outsider cards are played [in a no module game].
 
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Jack Fleming
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Just because their abilities are only useful with the modules doesn't mean you can't use them when you aren't using the modules. I'd still pick Blue over a good number of survivors purely for the great search/attack values.
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Andrew Kapish
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KingD21 wrote:
If I'm playing a 5p game, I can't deal out 4 to each player (at the start of the game) unless I'm playing both modules.

What would be the best solution?
The best solution?
Find a more efficient way to torture yourself than playing a 5-player game of Dead of Winter.
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Hans Moleman
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True -- figured you could just throw them in there -- didn't look closely to their stats to see if they are worth it. Seems kind of weak that this standalone version comes with just enough as there are less main objective scenarios, less exile cards, less survivors, and less crossroad cards compared to the original. THOUGH I'm sure the game will be relatively unaffected by this...all I simply want is more DOW.

I don't mind the 5p game -- my group runs any game way too long, so this is no different.
 
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Todd France
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Buy 2 Promo characters.
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Erwin Anciano
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I'd just mix it with the base game. We just played this last night with 5 players, I don't recall running into any problems either htan saying, "Oops! You can't pick Blue he's need in the story"
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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I still find it odd that people would buy The Long Night without having the base game. I know it's a standalone, but it's at least a sequel in my mind. I've heard that there are some people that watched "Angel" without ever having seen "Buffy", and this feels like that for me.

So, assuming that you have the base game, mix 'em all in!
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Tomas Inguanzo
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Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.
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soak man
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hrhtomas wrote:
Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.


I always take the discarded survivors out and reshuffle them in before the next player chooses their own. Just because the guy before you doesn't want a survivor, doesn't mean that you don't want the option.

I thought this was a thing that everyone did.
 
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Hans Moleman
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soakman wrote:
hrhtomas wrote:
Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.


I always take the discarded survivors out and reshuffle them in before the next player chooses their own. Just because the guy before you doesn't want a survivor, doesn't mean that you don't want the option.

I thought this was a thing that everyone did.


Probably a time issue with newbies... But with veteran players, it should be alright
 
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Todd France
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soakman wrote:
[q="hrhtomas"]Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.

For better balance, you should deal 3 to each of the last 2 players, dealing each of them a 4th after the first 3 have chosen.

For best balance, you could deal three to all players, and every player secretly discards one before you reshuffle the discards with the 3 leftovers to deal out the 4th card. This would introduce the 1 in 8 possibility of a player getting the same character twice, which you could either let them re-draw on the honor system, or suck it up.

Alternately, you could deal out all 20 characters, and call out the unused characters to be discarded face-up. Those cards get replaced by random discards after the other players have selected.

Or, you know, buy a promo character and be done with it.

soakman wrote:
I always take the discarded survivors out and reshuffle them in before the next player chooses their own. Just because the guy before you doesn't want a survivor, doesn't mean that you don't want the option.

I thought this was a thing that everyone did.

This is clearly not how it's supposed to work; the rules say to deal cards to all players, then each player chooses. Why would I want the chance to send the same crappy character around 5 times when everyone can get first dibs on 4 unique characters.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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soakman wrote:
hrhtomas wrote:
Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.


I always take the discarded survivors out and reshuffle them in before the next player chooses their own. Just because the guy before you doesn't want a survivor, doesn't mean that you don't want the option.

I thought this was a thing that everyone did.


No, this is against the rules. There are some survivors that can be more devastating in the hands of a betrayer and there are some survivors that can be more helpful to the Colony. When you choose which survivors you are going to use, it's also an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of the other players.
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Stefano Colombo
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In TLN there are 20 characters, so i don't see any problem to give 4 cards to each player. If some hero have specific abilities for modules not in play, it does not mean that someone could pick it up for the good stats that may have, or to have fun with a specific hero for his art/job/ecc...

So deal all characters and let people choose freely what they want to play
 
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Todd France
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LaTigre wrote:
In TLN there are 20 characters, so i don't see any problem to give 4 cards to each player.

One of the intro scenarios requires 2 characters be removed from the pool.
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randomlife wrote:
soakman wrote:
hrhtomas wrote:
Give the first four players four cards each. After they pick, take their rejects and re-shuffle them with the two undealt cards. Deal the last player 4 cards from those.


I always take the discarded survivors out and reshuffle them in before the next player chooses their own. Just because the guy before you doesn't want a survivor, doesn't mean that you don't want the option.

I thought this was a thing that everyone did.


No, this is against the rules. There are some survivors that can be more devastating in the hands of a betrayer and there are some survivors that can be more helpful to the Colony. When you choose which survivors you are going to use, it's also an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of the other players.


But it's not an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of other players if all 4 are unavailable to the rest of the players. It doesn't matter who you choose, none of them will have access to any of them...
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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soakman wrote:
But it's not an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of other players if all 4 are unavailable to the rest of the players. It doesn't matter who you choose, none of them will have access to any of them...


Sorry, I don't follow that.
 
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Mr Suitcase
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Looks like most playtest groups reverted to doing what all groups will eventually do:

They didn't bother removing the module specific characters (or other cards) from the game before starting.

Solutions include:

1) have plaid hat change the game and add 2 additional characters and mail them to everyone who owns a copy of the game. (odds of this happening? NEVER)
2) simply deal 3 to each of the 5 players. I really don't think this will mess with your overall enjoyment of this game.
3) (still want a choice from 4 cards instead of 3?) deal 3 to each of the 5 players, leaving 3 leftover cards. Player's throw their first reject into the leftover pile. Shuffle up and deal one leftover to each of the 5 players, and have them reject a card one last time. The 2 they are left with they keep.
4) want a more "fair" distribution? Deal 3 to each player, and draft. That is - everyone picks one of the three and passes the other 2. They then pick one of those 2 and discards the last card.
5) buy a couple of promo cards from Plaid Hat. While you're waiting for them to arrive in the mail, play using one of the methods 2 through 4.
6) buy the original game and mix more characters in. You're going to end up doing this eventually anyway. Trust me.
 
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randomlife wrote:
soakman wrote:
randomlife wrote:
No, this is against the rules. There are some survivors that can be more devastating in the hands of a betrayer and there are some survivors that can be more helpful to the Colony. When you choose which survivors you are going to use, it's also an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of the other players.
But it's not an opportunity to keep certain survivors out of the hands of other players if all 4 are unavailable to the rest of the players. It doesn't matter who you choose, none of them will have access to any of them...


Sorry, I don't follow that.


Just for clarity's sake (it's really not a big deal and this game gets house ruled a lot especially when merging TLN with the base game).

What I assume standard practice is based on the previous comments:
1. Shuffle survivors.
2. Deal 4 out to each player.
3. All players select 2 survivors.
4. Begin play.

How we select survivors (and how I incorrectly thought it was supposed to be done):
1. Shuffle survivors.
2. Deal 4 out to player 1.
3. Player 1 selects 2.
4. Add unselected survivors to survivor pool/deck.
5. Repeat for each player.

In the first scenario, there is no strategy to picking survivors for denial to others players since whoever you pick, all other players still have the same options to start with that they would have had otherwise. Sure, it MAY affect who is randomly chosen when survivors are added later, but initially your choice only affects survivors added after the game begins.

In the second scenario, there is strategy involved as you can deny survivors as picks for other players from the very beginning based on who you pick (not the betrayer, but don't want the betrayer to have Anita? Take her first!)

IMO, I prefer option 2 as it seems less random and more strategy based. There's no guarantee a given character will be drawn by more than 1 player anyway, but it makes your choice feel a bit more meaningful than just choosing the best available and/or best for your objective. Instead of your choice only really mattering after the first "extra" survivor is added to the game, it matters right from the beginning.

EDIT: Oh, if you're wondering (using option 2), we always each roll 1 d6 to determine the initial order by which players choose survivors. Rerolls for ties. Highest gets first pick, and we go around the table from there. First player is still the player with the highest Influence leader once survivors are chosen.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Okay, I get it now, thanks.

What I meant was that with the first scenario (the rules-as-written way), when I throw away two of my four survivors, I know for sure that no other player can get them. So if I'm the betrayer and I have the Cook as a choice, I have the opportunity to throw her away and know that the other players can get her.

With the second scenario, even if I threw the Cook away, someone else could still get her.

I prefer the RAW way -- I like being able to deny certain survivors from certain players.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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soakman wrote:
EDIT: Oh, if you're wondering, we always all roll 1 d6 to determine the order players choose survivors. Rerolls for ties. Highest gets first pick, and we go around the table from there. First player is still the player with the highest Influence leader once survivors are chosen.


Why do you need an order? It's supposed to be done secretly and simultaneously, with everyone revealing who they picked at the same time.
 
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randomlife wrote:
Okay, I get it now, thanks.

What I meant was that with the first scenario (the rules-as-written way), when I throw away two of my four survivors, I know for sure that no other player can get them. So if I'm the betrayer and I have the Cook as a choice, I have the opportunity to throw her away and know that the other players can get her.

With the second scenario, even if I threw the Cook away, someone else could still get her.

I prefer the RAW way -- I like being able to deny certain survivors from certain players.


How is that? Are your discarded options removed from the game permanently? Either I missed something in the rules, or I'm just playing 'wrong.' I thought the unchosen survivors always went back into the survivor pile to be be possibly found later in the game (even if you play with the RAW way). This way, no matter who you pick at the beginning, everyone could find anyone once the game starts (other than those already selected at the beginning of course).

randomlife wrote:
soakman wrote:
EDIT: Oh, if you're wondering, we always all roll 1 d6 to determine the order players choose survivors. Rerolls for ties. Highest gets first pick, and we go around the table from there. First player is still the player with the highest Influence leader once survivors are chosen.


Why do you need an order? It's supposed to be done secretly and simultaneously, with everyone revealing who they picked at the same time.


Because in option 2 (the way my group plays) it is not simultaneous as unchosen survivors are shuffled back in for possible selection by the next player. If it was simultaneous this wouldn't be possible.


EDIT: Also for clarity, official rules for the base set only say this under step 9 of setup.

"Deal 4 survivor cards to each player. Each player then chooses 2 to keep and returns the others to the deck. Re-shuffle the survivor deck."

To me, this means that option 1 is the correct way to choose survivors, but it does not say it is secret or simultaneous. Also, any unchosen survivors just get added to the deck which means they can be added later at random. So you aren't really denying access to them by not choosing them as you were the only player with that option to begin with.


Also, my point as it relates to this topic is that if you choose to use "Option 2" even in a 5 person game, you will have enough survivors as all unchosen survivors are added back to the deck before the next player draws 4 and selects their own. So, though not technically the correct way to choose survivors, I am offering my standard way up as a solution to the problem the thread creator is having.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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soakman wrote:
How is that? Are your discarded options removed from the game permanently? Either I missed something in the rules, or I'm just playing 'wrong.' I thought the unchosen survivors always went back into the survivor pile to be be possibly found later in the game (even if you play with the RAW way). This way, no matter who you pick at the beginning, everyone could find anyone once the game starts (other than those already selected at the beginning of course).


Right, I meant that the other players don't get the discarded ones as part of their initial selection. They could still show up later in the game. But what are the chances...?

soakman wrote:
Because in option 2 (the way my group plays) it is not simultaneous as unchosen survivors are shuffled back in for possible selection by the next player. If it was simultaneous this wouldn't be possible.


Got it.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Rules: "Deal 4 survivor cards to each player. Each player then chooses 2 to keep and returns the others to the deck."

I see what you mean that it doesn't explicitly say that it's secret and simultaneous, but it brings up too many questions if you don't do it secretly and simultaneously. Can I wait to see what other people pick before choosing my own? What if everyone wants to wait? Can one player choose to keep their throwaways hidden?

To me, in the absence of explicit instructions to hide/show and what order to do them in, the default is secret and simultaneous.

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randomlife wrote:
Rules: "Deal 4 survivor cards to each player. Each player then chooses 2 to keep and returns the others to the deck."

I see what you mean that it doesn't explicitly say that it's secret and simultaneous, but it brings up too many questions if you don't do it secretly and simultaneously. Can I wait to see what other people pick before choosing my own? What if everyone wants to wait? Can one player choose to keep their throwaways hidden?

To me, in the absence of explicit instructions to hide/show and what order to do them in, the default is secret and simultaneous.



I agree with you here. I definitely unintentionally created a set-up variant. modest But I like the element of strategy it provides (so much so, I thought it was intentional, haha). And it seems to maybe provide a solution here if it works for these guys.

DoW definitely has a few vague spots within the instructions (imo, many many more once you start approaching HOW to combine the sets), but the gameplay and theme is so solid that you usually fumble your way through it until something sticks that is fun. whistle Works for me, so long as everyone playing at the table is on the same page.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Survivor drafting might be a fun variant. Everyone gets 4 Survivors in their hand. Pick one and pass the rest to the left. Then do it one more time.

You will then have a little info about the other players. "I passed Steven the Cook. He chose those two survivors over her?? Betrayer!" "Ugh, I really want Mike Cho, but I don't want to give the Pirate to a Betrayer. Oh, cool. Darby didn't choose the Pirate after I passed it to her. I feel better about her not being a Betrayer now."
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