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Subject: Scythe the 4X game rss

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Lord Alatar
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After having played the game I am a little disappointed. The game is marked as a 4X game, but in reality it is only teasing about that. The game is only about building up for exterminating your enemies but ends right before the combat begins. The engine is good but since we never got to actually play the game I am disappointed.
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Chasseur d'Ours
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yes, it's really not a 4x, no eXpansion, no Exploration, no eXtermination
it's just a good game
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Torgo Shuffle
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Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x


Yes it is.
 
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Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x, no eXpansion, no Exploration, no eXtermination
it's just a good game


Of course it is, it's just different from the restricted way you define a 4X game
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Chasseur d'Ours
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yes yes of course and with the good definition Chess will be 4x too
Scythe is a wargame ?

Edit
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Torgo Shuffle
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Harrycover wrote:
yes yes of course and with the good definition Chees will be 4x too
Scythe is a wargame ?


I assume you mean Chess.
No, chess is not 4X.
Scythe is though.
 
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Chasseur d'Ours
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torgoshuffle wrote:
Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x


Yes it is.



No it is not.

Your turn now
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John Bradshaw
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I couldn't give a 4x whether it's a 4x or not.

Good game though.
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Harrycover wrote:
torgoshuffle wrote:
Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x


Yes it is.



No it is not.

Your turn now


Quote:
Why is Scythe classified as a 4x game?

My intent isn’t to wedge Scythe into that category or mislabel it, but rather to expand what seems to be a narrow definition. Below are the Wikipedia definitions of each of the Xs:

Explore means players send scouts across a map to reveal surrounding territories.
Expand means players claim new territory by creating new settlements, or sometimes by extending the influence of existing settlements.
Exploit means players gather and use resources in areas they control, and improve the efficiency of that usage.
Exterminate means attacking and eliminating rival players. Since in some games all territory is eventually claimed, eliminating a rival’s presence may be the only way to achieve further expansion.

Here’s why I chose to apply the 4x label to Scythe:

Explore: In Scythe, characters are moving from their homeland onto a patch of land surrounding the mysterious Factory. The landscape itself is known–you can look across the horizon and see there’s a mountain there. What you don’t know is (a) the encounters you’ll have along the way and (b) what you’ll find when you get to the Factory. It’s in those elements of discovery that you are exploring in Scythe.

Expand: In Scythe, players claim new territories with their units and buildings. At the end of the game, territory control is a big part of scoring.

Exploit: In Scythe, players gather and use resources (food, metal, oil, and wood) and improve the efficiency of that usage through upgrades, building, and enlisting.

Exterminate: In Scythe, players can use mechs and characters attack other players and eliminate opposing units from territories. It’s true that you’re not permanently killing units, though in any game it’s tough to kill an inanimate plastic token (maybe melt it?). It’s also true that Scythe is more often about the threat of combat than combat itself.

All of that said, I don’t want people thinking that Scythe is a game about flipping over hexes and constantly killing opponents’ troops. Rather, I hope people see Scythe as a different take on 4x.
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Barry Miller
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OK, after reading the four millionth complaint about how Scythe isn't a 4X game, can SOMEONE please enlighten me on why it even matters?

Really?

- In the beginning, people were pumped because it was billed as a 4X game. OK, got it.

- Those same people then played the game to realize, "Wait! This isn't a 4X game!" OK, got that too.

But what I don't get, is "So what?"

I mean, really, just because it turns out not to be a true 4X game, does that alone make it any less of a game for all those players?

Does it turn into a bad game only because it's not the 4X which was expected? If it's before midnight, does it turn into a pumpkin only because it's not really a golden carriage? No! It's still a carriage! (Sorry... I was stretching a little on that one)!

One of my favorite games is: Hegemonic. It too, was billed as a 4X game. When it was released many people commented that it wasn't really a 4X game afterall. But that didn't turn anyone away. Everyone reviewed the game for what it was. Not what they hoped it would be.

So again, it's not a 4X game. OK. Why does that change your opinion of the game?



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Chasseur d'Ours
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Yes, it's the own definition of the designer, but with the common defintion' IMHO it's not
where is the exploration ? all the map is reveal
where is expansion ? there is no developpment tree
where is the extermination ? units just go back
the author was inspired

I like Scythe, for me it's an euro game

but in fact 4x or not, it,s not so important except If you want to play a 4x
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Torgo Shuffle
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I suspect a lot of it stems from the fact that Scythe was pretty much created by just one guy - Jamey (yes, I know others had input and there were all the playtesters and the art and the Automa but it's mostly just Jamey) - and because of that, it somehow gives a certain type of person carte blanche to puff out their chests and behave as if their opinion is more valid because they own more boardgames than pants
 
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Lord Alatar
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So just one more question has anybody actually seen a player getting eXterminated in this game? I think it would demand that the player getting eXterminated would have to move all his peaces to the center of the board and having just one combat because there will not be that much of combat in the game. The player have to focus on getting eliminated.
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Chasseur d'Ours
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ok I go to buy more pants after I could explain a different opinion
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Jonathan Challis
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Scythe is a great game, and Jamey is a good designer. IMO he completely overstepped the mark in deciding to 'expand and redefine 4x' however - it has an accepted meaning, and Scythe is nowhere close to it.

Scythe is absolutely not a 4x game, it's not even 2x. It's a good game, but anyone going by the marketing blurb and buying it as a 4x game will be very disappointed. It's not even in that corner of the market, it's 90% euro, 10% hybrid.

Yes it does matter - lots of people search for games by categories, and believe the blurb on the box. It would have still sold out without that blurb, but to the right audience.
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Andrei Savva
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I love 4X games. All the aspects are important for me - the exploration, the development, the big scale of such games, etc.
I sold Scythe after one game, because it lacked major parts of what a 4X game means to me. So, if I would like to play a 4X game, Eclipse and Clash of Cultures+ expansion are a proven choise.
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Klaus Kristiansen
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Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x, no eXpansion, no Exploration, no eXtermination
it's just a good game


Why do you say no expansion?

The way I see it:
Explore: a little
Expand: 100%
Exploit: 100%
Exterminate: not really
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Jonathan Challis
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bgm1961 wrote:

I mean, really, just because it turns out not to be a true 4X game, does that alone make it any less of a game for all those players?


Yes, because many gamers only like certain sorts of games. Me included.

Perhaps you have very broad tastes in games and will play most things, but I don't know many gamers like that. There are whole categories of games that I'd rather sit out and read a book than play for example.

bgm1961 wrote:

One of my favorite games is: Hegemonic. It too, was billed as a 4X game. When it was released many people commented that it wasn't really a 4X game afterall. But that didn't turn anyone away. Everyone reviewed the game for what it was. Not what they hoped it would be.


I own and was very disappointed with Hegemonic for exactly those reasons! One of my few under-researched purchases at a convention...

bgm1961 wrote:

So again, it's not a 4X game. OK. Why does that change your opinion of the game?


Because a lot of people wouldn't have bought it if they knew that? Conversely, a lot of Euro players probably would buy it and enjoy it if they new it wasn't a 4x game.

I can sell tractors as sports cars, and it may be a good tractor, and useful for people wanting one, but it's a disappointment to anyone wanting a sports car. Labels and definitions are used and useful for a reason!
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Klaus Kristiansen
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lordalatar wrote:
So just one more question has anybody actually seen a player getting eXterminated in this game? I think it would demand that the player getting eXterminated would have to move all his peaces to the center of the board and having just one combat because there will not be that much of combat in the game. The player have to focus on getting eliminated.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1614063/how-prevent-getting...
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Paul Ferguson
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It's not a 4X and not even close. If we go by Jamey's new definition of 4X, then Carcassonne is a 4X, 7 wonders is a 4X, Love letter is a 4X or any game that you draw from a deck of cards and you get something nice.

If it had all the elements of a 4X, it would be a really good game. It is just to friendly with no consequence to be a 4X. If the eXplore part of Scythe was made a little more challenging by having cards in the encounter deck that gave you nothing, or caused you to loose a worker, it would add a lot to the experience. Also if the resources from each hex were hidden until you land a unit on it, the game would expand into more of a reactive strategic journey, rather than a very mechanical step by step process.
 
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Trevor Taylor
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Harrycover wrote:
Yes, it's the own definition of the designer, but with the common defintion' IMHO it's not
where is the exploration ? all the map is reveal The encounter cards are the exploration, although this is the weakest link to the x's
where is expansion ? there is no developpment tree Every bottom row action is your tech-tree. The upgrade or enlist action directly modifies future actions, whilst buildings give you new powers, as do the mechs you construct. So definitely a tech-tree. Also, you expand your area control.
where is the extermination ? units just go back
the author was inspired Again, this is weaker than in what's considered a true 4x game. You cannot destroy your opponent so they are out of the game to technically win. However, you can attack and defeat your opponent in order to make gains and considering the number of conflicts in history that actually wiped out the opposition is a minuscule percentage of all conflicts, this is more 'realistic' in my opinion.

I like Scythe, for me it's an euro game

but in fact 4x or not, it,s not so important except If you want to play a 4x


It has the 4x's, but it's not directly comparable to what's considered a 4x staple. I think the biggest voice of hate against Scythe is people complaining it's not what they wanted it to be, so basically buying the game without actually finding out what it is! It is a Euro game, it also does have 4x elements. It's just not what you might expect if you haven't read the back of the box before buying
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Stephen Miller
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Klaus O K wrote:
Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x, no eXpansion, no Exploration, no eXtermination
it's just a good game


Why do you say no expansion?

The way I see it:
Explore: a little
Expand: 100%
Exploit: 100%
Exterminate: not really


Very few 4x games do all of the four x's fully.

...Most, to me, tend to have the Expand and Exterminate as their focus, with Exploit and Explore being secondary (And Explore typically disappearing by the end of the game, if it's there to start with)

Scythe... Has the Expand and Exploit as it's focus (Which... It's a 4x game designed by someone who's previously done two Euro games, of course it was going to have Exploit as a focal point), has explore and exterminate to lesser degrees.
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Duarte
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Oh look, another thread about this.
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Jeff Connell
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You people need to learn what a 4x game is, Scythe definitely is not one no matter how long you hold your breath.
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Ryan Bull
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Harrycover wrote:
yes, it's really not a 4x, no eXpansion, no Exploration, no eXtermination
it's just a good game


Exploration = exploring the land with your leader and either experiencing an encounter or finding an exotic technology at a legendary factory. I find the exploration to be quite epic in feel, but I can understand those who are imaginatively challenged do not.

Extermination = you can defeat people in combat.


Dna_Boy wrote:
Oh look, another thread about this.


Oh look, another snarky comment with no meaningful contribution.
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