$30.00
Kristian Järventaus
Finland
Loviisa
flag msg tools
mb
Some preliminary stuff and apropos things

Been working on a stupid ridiculous fractal Diplomacy variant where each nation can be a different kind of government/team, with their own subgames, from simple democracies to king of the hill to subdivided states/feudal provinces, and one of those subgames is basically Imperial Hide and Sneak, where the current Emperor tries to stay un-assassinated while other players try to make them yes-assassinated.

Anyhow, to break ties in certain situations, I thought of just using some kind of RPS mechanism. Which spiralled out of control.

As you probably know, you can extend the usual tripartite rock-paper-scissors system into any odd number of nodes. The Spock-lizard extension being famous.

For now, I will call any RPS-like system with five or more items with the term RPSX, where the X stands for Extension or Extended.

These extensions work by having an odd number of things in a circular order; each item defeats every N items before them and is defeated by every N item behind them; there's N + N + 1 items in the circle. If you have three items, one defeats one and is defeated one. If you have five items, one defeats two and is defeated by two.

There's another way to do a RPSX system, that I came up with independently when I was a kid: you can have a fractal RPSX system, the simplest of which has 9 items:

You have these items: Blue Rock, Paper, Scissors, Red R, P, S and Green R, P, S.

Blue Rock beats Blue scissors beats Blue Paper. Same goes for Red Rock vs. other Reds, and Green Rocks vs other Greens. These are normal RPS cycles.

Any Blue beats any Red. Any Red beats any Green. And any Green beats any Blue.

You can grow this fractal as big as you need, and you can have different numbers of items in each cycle. The next simplest RPSX fractals are Five-Cycle and RPS, or RPS and Five-cycle; the first one has five colors like in the example above, the second one has three colors, and each color contains five items, like in Spock-Lizard.

These two kinds of systems can be used with the thread's central idea, though which ever you use is not important right now. I just wanted the idea out there, because I haven't seen it much online.

The actual mechanism

The game goes in several rounds, and players have a hand / pool of RPSX-cards or tokens; five or seven seems like a good number.

During a round, they pay one of these cards in a secret bid, creating gaps in what cards they can play.

At certain points or by doing a specific action (in lieu of anything more valuable), players may retrieve (some or all?) of their RPSX cards back into their hand, possibly in exchange of also getting a small reward to balance out losing out on a round.

Question is, I can't get this playtested easily and I was wondering if this has been done before? "Bidding" from a finite set of RPSX-tokens that carried on to subsequent rounds?

Some points:

1) This would introduce more strategy to RPS, but it might also lead too quickly to a spiral of obvious choices, maybe even lead to a situation where the game is 'solved' after a while
2) With an RPSX cycle, at the beginning you usually will have left some means of defeating any card your opponent might have, but over there will be gaps you will not be able to defeat with yours, which is when you'd need to refresh your cards

Really, without playtesting in a larger context I really have no idea whether this could work, and examples in favour or contrary to this would be appreciated.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Naeddyr wrote:
During a round, they pay one of these cards in a secret bid, creating gaps in what cards they can play.

At certain points or by doing a specific action (in lieu of anything more valuable), players may retrieve (some or all?) of their RPSX cards back into their hand, possibly in exchange of also getting a small reward to balance out losing out on a round.

Question is, I can't get this playtested easily and I was wondering if this has been done before? "Bidding" from a finite set of RPSX-tokens that carried on to subsequent rounds?


Certainly many games have had "playing a card from your hand simultaneously and don't get them back to reuse immediately" type mechanisms.

Specifically about RPS or RPSX as the simultaneous subgame being played: FWIW There is coincidentally an article "Deriving Card Games from Mathematical Games" by Daniel Ashlock and J. Schonfeld in the journal Game & Puzzle Design volume 1 no. 2 which analyzes exactly this idea (extending simultaneous games (e.g. prisoner's dilemma and rock-paper-scissors and RPSLizardSpock etc) to having your options limited by what option cards you have already played. They did some simulations and evolving of agents to explore some simple examples of such games with various payoffs for different outcomes.

(Disclosure: I am a copyeditor of GAPD.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristian Järventaus
Finland
Loviisa
flag msg tools
mb
Thanks, I found an earlier version of the article online and I'll try to grok it, though mostly this one's about generating evolutionary algorithms to play the games
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.