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Subject: what am i doing wrong ? rss

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Doctor Evazan
Belgium
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Played my second game as a rebel.

We stopped in round 7. The alliance marker was at 14, I had 2 y-wings left, and i was not getting anywhere. I didnt score one point in that whole 4 hours of play.

It started bad already. the empire's planets were situated in de center of the map. So the rebel positions were always close.

what happened ? the empire held 5 large armies and didnt move around a lot. They just subjugated my loyal planets. I started with 3 loyal systems then 4,3,2..
My rebel troops were spread in 4 places and quickly eradicated.
Mon mothma was captured and shortly afterwards put in a carbonite coffin. a round later Leia was captured (and questioned). So no more diplomacy for the rebels. The empire player put a lot of energy in capturing. which mostly succeeded and as a rebel you have 1 and later 2 less leaders to do missions with.

As all loyal planets were quickly subjugated and i had nothing to build. So... no hit and run for me, and no points as most objectives want you to initiate combat, or have a lot of loyal systems.

to make matters worse. Drew not a single card to free my captured leader. Just got the falcon, which was opposed and that was that.

I cant understand why everyone is telling that the rebels win the most games ? If you deny them to build anything they simply cant score objectives. The empire does not need to search for the rebel base in a hurry, because they have 14 rounds to do that.

I probably miss something ;-)
concentrating my troops in the first round ? move around more ? i am at a loss here.

I read that most empire players start by frantically checking as much systems as they can. I think thats the worst you can do. you let yourself open for rebel hit and run, and therefore scoring objectives. If you just attack loyal planets, and/or rebel fleets you are pulling the strings, and render the rebel helpless.

but ofc... i only played 2 games :-)
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Dennis de Vries
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Ah, doctor, that aneasthetic is perfect!
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One of the most common first turns for Rebels I've seen them having 1 large army and attack the weakest Imperial spot. That usually works and leaves a large space on the map open for the Rebels. Also, you have only 2 places in the beginning where you may place your starting troops.

Usually it's not worth having much in your Rebel Base for starters, unless you want to move quickly and attack from your base first.

Around round 7 you should have a few objectives completed, because then (for what I've seen) the Empire has huge armies that will take any system.

Try to use the missions and action cards in a clever way. Try to position your leaders, so that they might support another leader doing a mission there and try to work with the objectives you have. Try to block systems for the Empire as well: through sabotage or just having troops or ships there prevents the Empire from building units and deploying there.

And if all systems are subjugated or loyal to the empire, you still have 1 trooper and 1 x/Y/transport to build and deploy.
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Conan Meriadoc
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Menghini wrote:
Also, you have only 2 places in the beginning where you may place your starting troops.


I don't have the rulebook on hand, but IIRC the rebels are able to deploy troops on any neutral system too, not only on the Rebel-loyal systems.
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Dennis de Vries
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Ah, doctor, that aneasthetic is perfect!
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Dystopian wrote:
Menghini wrote:
Also, you have only 2 places in the beginning where you may place your starting troops.


I don't have the rulebook on hand, but IIRC the rebels are able to deploy troops on any neutral system too, not only on the Rebel-loyal systems.


That's true, we both are. You may deploy in 2 systems at start-up. Which can be the Rebel Base, Rebel loyal or neutral system.

Edit: read the rulebook. You may place units in the Rebel Base and/or any ONE other rebel loyal or neutral system. So you may start with:

- only units on Rebel Base
- units on Rebel Base and 1 other rebel loyal or neutral system
- only units on 1 rebel loyal or neutral system
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Doug DeMoss
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evazan wrote:
Played my second game as a rebel.

We stopped in round 7. The alliance marker was at 14, I had 2 y-wings left, and i was not getting anywhere. I didnt score one point in that whole 4 hours of play.

It started bad already. the empire's planets were situated in de center of the map. So the rebel positions were always close.

what happened ? the empire held 5 large armies and didnt move around a lot. They just subjugated my loyal planets. I started with 3 loyal systems then 4,3,2..
My rebel troops were spread in 4 places and quickly eradicated.
Mon mothma was captured and shortly afterwards put in a carbonite coffin. a round later Leia was captured (and questioned). So no more diplomacy for the rebels. The empire player put a lot of energy in capturing. which mostly succeeded and as a rebel you have 1 and later 2 less leaders to do missions with.

As all loyal planets were quickly subjugated and i had nothing to build. So... no hit and run for me, and no points as most objectives want you to initiate combat, or have a lot of loyal systems.

to make matters worse. Drew not a single card to free my captured leader. Just got the falcon, which was opposed and that was that.

I cant understand why everyone is telling that the rebels win the most games ? If you deny them to build anything they simply cant score objectives. The empire does not need to search for the rebel base in a hurry, because they have 14 rounds to do that.

I probably miss something ;-)
concentrating my troops in the first round ? move around more ? i am at a loss here.

I read that most empire players start by frantically checking as much systems as they can. I think thats the worst you can do. you let yourself open for rebel hit and run, and therefore scoring objectives. If you just attack loyal planets, and/or rebel fleets you are pulling the strings, and render the rebel helpless.

but ofc... i only played 2 games :-)


A few things to note.

Utapau is a key location because the Empire can't start adjacent. Try to get it on turn 1. That alone will give you enough of a fleet to do some damage.

Some objectives will practically happen by themselves. Popular Support, for instance - unless the Empire really goes out of its way to make nice with subjugated systems and converts them to Imperial (or neutral) loyalty, they still count. Infiltrate regularly to make sure you get to the good ones.

The Millennium Falcon isn't used up on a failed mission. You only activate it after a successful mission, and THEN it is used up but does its job. So you get to keep trying, though it can be harder to plan the right mission to get it done in the right spot.

Just because you didn't have Mon Mothma and Princess Leia available doesn't mean you can't do diplomacy. Admiral Ackbar is also a 2, and it's possible to do Build Alliance with both of your other starting leaders (General Rieekan and Jan Dodonna) as well.

EDIT to clarify point on loyalty
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Jan Probst
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Kiel
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Also note that rebel loyal systems that get subjugated *still have rebel loyalty*. Loyalty and subjugation are independent separate things.
This is important for various objectives (contributes to the "some objectives eventually basically fulfil themselves" thing mentioned above).

Of course you may want to sabotage subjugated neutral systems to "encourage" the empire to do loyalty there to get rid of sabotage instead of slowly and inefficiently clear away your subjugated loyalties.

On the other hand, sabotage on a subjugated rebel loyal system is there to stay for a while, this can also be relevant for objectives (if you didn't manage to ditch Cut Supply Lines to Infiltration)
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Doctor Evazan
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Weltenreiter wrote:
Also note that rebel loyal systems that get subjugated *still have rebel loyalty*. Loyalty and subjugation are independent separate things.
This is important for various objectives (contributes to the "some objectives eventually basically fulfil themselves" thing mentioned above).



Are you sure about that ? that's a whole other ballgame to me wow
 
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Joeri Rotthier
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evazan wrote:
Weltenreiter wrote:
Also note that rebel loyal systems that get subjugated *still have rebel loyalty*. Loyalty and subjugation are independent separate things.
This is important for various objectives (contributes to the "some objectives eventually basically fulfil themselves" thing mentioned above).



Are you sure about that ? that's a whole other ballgame to me wow


Absolutely 100% sure.
It is subjugated, but keeps its loyalty for objective purposes.
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Paul Newsham
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evazan wrote:
Weltenreiter wrote:
Also note that rebel loyal systems that get subjugated *still have rebel loyalty*. Loyalty and subjugation are independent separate things.
This is important for various objectives (contributes to the "some objectives eventually basically fulfil themselves" thing mentioned above).



Are you sure about that ? that's a whole other ballgame to me wow


Yeah, rules reference page 13. I've played twice and I missed that too. No wonder Imperials crushed both times.
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Steve Hope
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Woodside
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Doug's point about Utapau is huge. Diplomatic Relations with Utapau is basically the most certain first-turn activity in the game, IMO. And if you get Mon Mothma's action card, you can place her there and then put another leader in the system to do the Diplomatic Relations and bang! Instant fleet.

Two other good points that were made:

1. You don't need fleets to complete a lot of your missions. Winning a battle in a subjugated world just takes one of the missions suited for it. Loyalty and Sabotage are both troop-independent. That's not to say that having zero military presence isn't a problem--it is, it's a huge problem, and most of the Rebel losses we've seen kind of play out the way you describe, but you can still be doing productive things.

2. The best use for the starting Rebel troops is to deploy somewhere (preferably away from Star Destroyers) and try to bloody the Imperial nose. They have 3 SDs and a Death Star. Ideally you could set up somewhere next to one of their planets but not next to any of those 4 units and then go whomp them on T1.
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Private Blinky
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Sorry to hear you had such a rough go of it.

When the Empire is capture-happy, you may want to try early on simply attempting missions and activating systems that don't result in you having an available leader to capture. This means starting no missions, opposing no missions, keeping your leaders more than 1 space away from any unactivated Imperial troops, and no combat unless you can ensure there will be no Imperial units left. The Empire player can only play the base capture card if there is an Imperial unit present in the system; deny them that with smart play and if the Empire has decided to try and capture that round (or be very risky and plan a 1-turn capture combo), your leaders may not of gained much in terms of actions, but the Empire leaders are completely wasted that round if you've blocked the card's requirements.

For the impact that it has on losing a leader, you probably want to keep Mon Mothma and Leia out in the fringes for at least the first round, they are arguably the most powerful leaders the Rebels have at the start of the game, and to keep them protected until you have some additional leaders with Spec Ops (red) icons to provide a stronger resistance on any capture attempts. Of course depending on what the Empire is attempting during their turn, you may not have a choice and may have to attempt or counter something that puts your leader in a opportunity for capture...

Don't forget that a leader is also automatically freed if all Imperial military units are removed from the system that has the captured leader. So if the leader in carbonite/captured is poorly defended, the proper mission might be enough to save them.


Secondly, get yourself familiar with all the objective cards, and try to only focus on a few (some are definitely easier to get than others), and try to maximize your actions to meeting those objectives along with other plays. As was stated earlier, making Utapu loyal to gain a Mon Cal ship is a strong first-round play, and playing on what Jan had pointed out, if you also have Naboo in your starting loyalty, that means only Sullust needs to be turned Rebel-Loyal in order to claim the early objective card that requires all populous systems in a region to have Rebel loyalty (noting the point Jan said about subjugation NOT affecting loyalty).

I am entering round 7 on one of my games, and I have only played 1 objective card so far. We're at an interesting point because I was able to use Hidden Fleet to move 4 ships (including 2 Mon Cal Cruisers) and 4 ground units into Corusant (he had left it empty for the last 2 rounds), and we just received the Heart of the Empire objective card at the end of the turn (we knew it was coming as it was the last lv-2 in the deck) If we can hold it for the round, we can get major objective points, but it's so unlikely, given that he has 20+ units in two adjacent territories, including two(!) SSDs, there is almost no chance to survive. But we Rebels can also use that to an advantage: since the Rebels can play first, if we enact a mission in one of those systems it is basically a guaranteed success, because if they do choose send a Leader to oppose, then their units cannot leave there for the rest of the round. And although the Rebels will be guaranteed to lose all of their major firepower in the process, this skirmish also means that the Empire player now has less units at his disposal this round to try and further narrow down the location of the (recently relocated) base, that's one more turn down for the Rebels to try and keep the base alive for another day. This is an example of a singular play helping achieve multiple game goals for the Rebels (free uncontested mission, possible objectives gained, hampering the Empire's chance to expand), which gives them the best chance to try and run out the clock.

Best of luck.
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Jason Sherlock
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These two points may seem obvious, but I will state them anyways.

1) The Empire is best situated for pitched battles. They can bring large forces to bear quickly. More importantly, they can easily replace losses. Don't play their game. Avoid large, evenly matched, battles. You will lose in a war of attrition.

Instead, you should be hitting weaker forces, or sending groups that you know won't win, but could cause some damage to force the Imperials to either commit leaders or take unacceptable losses. Your job is not to destroy the Imperial forces, but to interdict them.


2) For the early part of the game, do not put more than 7 units on the Rebel base, unless you are going to be moving them out immediately with a mission. Gather Intel is not a super option, when it pulls 1 probe card. When it is pulling 2 or more probes, it is essentially giving the Imperials an entire free turn's worth of free searching.
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James Cheng
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And don't worry about your board's presence. I once ended up with only 1 royal System on the map, and wasn't able to deploy half my fleet because of it. I still managed to pull a win and it's the most satisfying feeling ever.
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Brian K
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Another question. You say Mon Mothma was captured early, and so you can't use her to establish loyalty anymore. You also say the Empire didn't move its fleets much. Was the Empire using Capture Rebel Operative in systems that didn't have Imperial units? Because usually if Mothma is getting loyal systems, there aren't any Imperial units there to capture her.

The only way for the Empire to capture without units in the system is with Boba Fett's mission card, which is one-use.
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Foggy Leggy
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Some opening tips

First note the following...

1. The upper centre of the map is filled with planets that produce units in 1-turn and is also the only set of worlds where the Imperials can't start which gives some breathing room. All are also populated so they can all produce things.

2. As the rebels, understand that your power is more in your starfighters then your capital ships, its much more important to get a lot of them than 1 cruiser (cruisers are much more suited to the defense of the rebel base IMHO because it forces the Empire to bring a good sized fleet there since they have no bombers). In battle, a smart Imperial player would almost never target a cruiser over y-wings because if targeting fighters 4-hits can remove 4 red dice in fighters but only two red dice and a black one if he targets a cruiser)

With those things in mind, I like to send my fleet into this area and then have Mon Mothma run diplomacy

-the presence of a fleet gives her a better chance at succeeding and the added success bonus usually makes it a waste of time for the Imperials to try opposing her. Guaranteed win
-anywhere you can move a mixed space/ground force without combat is a place where the Imperials aren't which removes the threat of them capturing her barring the Boba Fett card

As the rebels just convert whatever is closeby and in your path using your fleet as an advantage and deterrent. The faster units of any kind are produced the better off you'll be and faster your fleet will build meaning the less chance the Imperials will engage you without a really strong force.

That in turn can force his forces down the direction you want but that's a separate discussion...
 
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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evazan wrote:
Played my second game as a rebel.



what happened ? the empire held 5 large armies and didnt move around a lot. They just subjugated my loyal planets. I started with 3 loyal systems then 4,3,2..



Sounds to me like your issue might have been with the Rule by Fear card. Imperials need a unit the planet to play this card. If they really weren't moving around a lot, I have a hard time believing this could have been the case.

As the Rebels, you can't go wrong with trying to gain loyalty of as many planets as possible. Mon Mothma, believe it or not, may be your most important leader, so use her! The Empire should realistically have a really hard time suppressing all Rebel support in the galaxy.
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
evazan wrote:
Played my second game as a rebel.



what happened ? the empire held 5 large armies and didnt move around a lot. They just subjugated my loyal planets. I started with 3 loyal systems then 4,3,2..



Sounds to me like your issue might have been with the Rule by Fear card. Imperials need a unit the planet to play this card. If they really weren't moving around a lot, I have a hard time believing this could have been the case.

As the Rebels, you can't go wrong with trying to gain loyalty of as many planets as possible. Mon Mothma, believe it or not, may be your most important leader, so use her! The Empire should realistically have a really hard time suppressing all Rebel support in the galaxy.



Yes you pretty much always want to gain loyalty.
However after a couple of turns the empire is usuallly right next door to any unit producing planet.
Often you gain loyalty and they come and subjugate it by the next build phase, its still worth doing sometimes, but it is rather disheartening.
(not as disheartening as Boba Fett using his mission on a safe system and the Emperor Luring Mon Mothma to the Dark side on the second round - happned last night)
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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jooice wrote:
Often you gain loyalty and they come and subjugate it by the next build phase, its still worth doing sometimes, but it is rather disheartening.

If they're doing that everytime (as they should), use the occasion to lure their forces away from your hidden base ! Or force them onto kashyyyk, you know, the empire really doesn't like those wookies =)
 
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Andy B
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Really sorry to hear you are having a rough time as the rebels.

I have played this a lot and I can say that my first time as the rebels, I nearly through my teddies out the airlock! By turn 3 the Imperials had the Capital ship systems sown up and I had lost almost all my forces. My friend was very gracious and reminded me of the movies....the Rebels cannot win by brute force, they cannot win by being bull headed and charging in.

First up, the Rebels are a slow burn. Secondly, don't forget, the only way for the empire to win is to destroy the rebel base. Time is very much on your side,not his. He has 26 systems to search (so about 13 turns to exhaust the Probe deck), so you only need a few points to make it so much harder for him.

So, concentrate on your objective cards, work your way towards them (but never directly)....that may take 5 or 6 turns before you start scoring, but then they will come in a flurry. Never chose a single strategy....and remember, you opponent is wondering "how the hell do I win this?" just as much as you are.

Good luck, may the force be with you
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Doug DeMoss
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26 systems, actually - Coruscant and the five Imperial systems drawn at start aren't in the deck. Good point, though.
 
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Andy B
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demoss1 wrote:
26 systems, actually - Coruscant and the five Imperial systems drawn at start aren't in the deck. Good point, though.


Okay, good point, so the theory is 13 turns without any other influence (missions etc). Scoring 3 or 4 points can tip it in the rebels favour very quickly. That may seem difficult, but we must remember, you ain't going to score in the first few turns....try to think like a Rebel...hit and run!
 
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jooice ZP
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The best way to ensure scoring points is to have the right objective cards and for that you need to infiltrate in the early rounds, and probably once or twice in the II tier.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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Furey wrote:
demoss1 wrote:
26 systems, actually - Coruscant and the five Imperial systems drawn at start aren't in the deck. Good point, though.


Okay, good point, so the theory is 13 turns without any other influence (missions etc). Scoring 3 or 4 points can tip it in the rebels favour very quickly. That may seem difficult, but we must remember, you ain't going to score in the first few turns....try to think like a Rebel...hit and run!


You might be surprised. All of the tier I Objectives can potentially be scored early. Cut Supply Lines becomes more likely if you're playing four-player as the Rebels may be able to run a Sabotage as the last action of the turn. Rebel Assault and Crippling Blow may well be achieved on turn 1 if they're drawn. Regional Support can easily happen by turn 3 (Bespin + Mustafar will do it). And if you've started with a bunch of trooper production, scatter them about and try for Defend the People (probably the hardest to get early). That one you won't likely get, but if nothing else you'll start building up forces on your low-value systems that you may be able to Rapid Deploy to the base later.
 
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Doctor Evazan
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Thanks for the useful tips.
Things are now looking much brighter :-)

Well: biggest mistake was assuming that a loyal system that was subjugated did not count for that objective.
Second mistake was not realizing that you have to put your troops (at startup) on only 2 systems. Now i was too much spread out.
Third mistake was not realizing that sabotaging a subjugated system was hard to counter for the empire.
Think we misinterpreted the rule by fear mission too.
considering mon mothma. if i remember correctly i used that leader in an imperial system for another mission (i cant tell exactly which one)

All that combined with lousy card draws: no kashyyyk mission, nothing to free captured leaders etc. made it pretty impossible to play the rebel.

With all those new tactics up my sleeve, I cannot wait to start a new game.
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Doug DeMoss
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evazan wrote:

Thanks for the useful tips.
Things are now looking much brighter :-)

Well: biggest mistake was assuming that a loyal system that was subjugated did not count for that objective.
Second mistake was not realizing that you have to put your troops (at startup) on only 2 systems. Now i was too much spread out.
Third mistake was not realizing that sabotaging a subjugated system was hard to counter for the empire.
Think we misinterpreted the rule by fear mission too.
considering mon mothma. if i remember correctly i used that leader in an imperial system for another mission (i cant tell exactly which one)

All that combined with lousy card draws: no kashyyyk mission, nothing to free captured leaders etc. made it pretty impossible to play the rebel.

With all those new tactics up my sleeve, I cannot wait to start a new game.


Well, there is an alternative counter to a sabotaged subjugated system - abandon it. Not likely to happen with a system producing heavy equipment, but Nal Hutta? Sure, I'll just move out and then it isn't an Imperial system any longer.

As for Mon Mothma, be very careful about that. You do NOT want to get her captured if you can help it. There aren't usually that many diplomatic missions you'll want to run on Imperial systems anyway, though you might on rare occasion want to oppose one.


 
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