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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » General

Subject: Cave not a threat in non-Cave 2-player games? rss

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David Fenton
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I've only been able to play 2-player games so far (Kn v Dr, Kn v Gob), and we've never even come close to running out the tiles and triggering Collapse (we normally have 5-10 tiles left).

Is this typical? In a 3-4 player non-Cave game you have 3-4 tiles placed per "round", vs 2 for a 2-player game. Should we try something like placing 2 tiles per turn (or an extra tile every other turn)?
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Patrick Leder
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Seems typical to me.
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Kevin Green
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That's been my experience as well. Lots of two player games where the cave was a non-issue, and one three player game where the cave collapsing was a threat.
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Patrick Leder
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Outside of solo games I have had maybe 2 games end with everyone losing during regular play testing. Ironically the first time it happened it was Kyle Woelfel, David Somerville, and myself playing. Bear in mind I have played MANY games.

A week ago while play testing new material I got into an unwinnable position and just ended up lying down on the job until the end came. That was more an issue of what we were testing.
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Kyle
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The threat level of the collapse will vary depending on the setups you use. With some of the lower player counts it won't be much of a concern unless the players are really struggling to complete their goals, so in those cases it's there mostly just to provide a definitive end point so the game can't drag out forever.

If a player is particularly efficient you may not be even remotely close to the collapse when it ends. This picture was one I took a little over a month ago of a G vs.D that ended with the smallest map I've ever seen:



On the other hand, in certain setups the players can do so much to screw with each other that the collapse does become a major factor in the game - Goblins vs. Thief can be especially brutal, and I've seen a few of those end in mutual losses where both players would have needed at least 2-3 more turns to have a chance of winning.
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Darrell Goodridge
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GreenM wrote:
Outside of solo games I have had maybe 2 games end with everyone losing during regular play testing. Ironically the first time it happened it was Kyle Woelfel, David Somerville, and myself playing. Bear in mind I have played MANY games.

A week ago while play testing new material I got into an unwinnable position and just ended up lying down on the job until the end came. That was more an issue of what we were testing.


So you're saying a Cave win isn't very likely? After one play, I'd probably concur. I had JUST placed my last tile when the Dragon was one turn from winning, and thief did win, and the Knight, while powerful, wasn't in a position to do 4 damage to the Dragon.
 
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Patrick Leder
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Cardboardjunkie wrote:
GreenM wrote:
Outside of solo games I have had maybe 2 games end with everyone losing during regular play testing. Ironically the first time it happened it was Kyle Woelfel, David Somerville, and myself playing. Bear in mind I have played MANY games.

A week ago while play testing new material I got into an unwinnable position and just ended up lying down on the job until the end came. That was more an issue of what we were testing.


So you're saying a Cave win isn't very likely? After one play, I'd probably concur. I had JUST placed my last tile when the Dragon was one turn from winning, and thief did win, and the Knight, while powerful, wasn't in a position to do 4 damage to the Dragon.


The scenario being discussed from the original post is if the Cave isn't a player how likely is the collapse. I am saying a collapse is not likely unless there is a Cave player pushing the players towards it. If the Crystals are positioned well, you might only be a turn or two away from victory after placing the last tile.

I have won as the Cave plenty of times, in fact the last 2 games I played I played as the Cave. The first game I was playing on Hard and I would have won on my next turn and the second game I was playing on Normal and I won a turn ahead of the Knight.
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Darrell Goodridge
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Sorry, I misread it. The post I quoted said "outside of solo games" and then mentions playing a 3 player game, so I figured the Cave was a player in some of them.

Thanks for the reassurance that the Cave is a contender. It was probably just harder for me in the first game because the Thief added 6 tiles to the stack.
 
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Patrick Leder
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Then plan was to publish the game and then charge 5000 a head for my How to Play the Cave Seminars.
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