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BattleLore (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Is shifting Line of Sight always allowed? rss

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Marcus Lind
Sweden
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Are you always allowed to shift Line of Sight, to be able to use a ranged attack? Or are you limited to the examples in the rulebook? I´m having trouble understanding exactly how much, or when, you are allowed to shift the position of the attacking ranged unit in it´s hex.

I´m asking because during a game we saw some cases where there could be a LoS if you shifted the miniatures LoS slightly, but these cases differed from the rule book example, which is correct for very specific situations.
 
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Matthew Peckham
England
Dorking
Surrey
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You shouldn't be using the unit within it's hex, but the hex itself.

Draw a line from the very centre of the attacker's hex to the very centre of the target's hex - if it passes through an occupied hex, LOS is blocked.
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Niko J
Finland
Turku
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If you haven't already, read the REFERENCE BOOK. Rulebook seems to be more of a quick-start guide whereas reference book covers everything more in-depth. Your particular question is covered on page six under the header "line of sight" for instance.

Here's a pdf link:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/56/4a...
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Marcus Lind
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From the reference book:

Quote:
When line of sight is traced along the edge of one or more
hexes, the attacker shifts the line away from the hex edge in
one direction. Line of sight line is not blocked unless there is
either a hex of blocking terrain or a hex containing units along
this new line.


The shifting part is what confuses me here, since you don´t trace LoS beteween centers when shifting the line. BUT, this part seems to clarify when shifting is actually allowed (not always):

Quote:
along the edge of one or more hexes


This must be considered when determining if LoS is valid. You cannot always trace LoS from the sides of hexes just because the miniatures look like they are facing each other if you do (peeping from behind a forest or hill, for example). The "edge" thing seems to settle it.
 
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Tor Andersson
Sweden
Lund
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I find the BattleLore rules more confusing (as is par for the course when it comes to FFG) than the explanation in the C&C Ancients and Memoir 44 rulebooks (which use the same line of sight rules). I have no idea why they think explaining line of sight using fuzzy terms like "shifting" the line would be an improvement...

C&C Ancients:

Imagine a line drawn from the center of the hex containing the firing unit to the center of the hex containing the target unit. This line of sight is blocked only if a hex (or part of a hex) between the battling unit and the target hex contains an obstruction. Obstructions include a unit or leader (regardless if friend or foe), some terrain features and the edge of the battlefi eld. The terrain in the target unit's hex does not block line of sight.

If the imaginary line runs along the edge of one or more hexes that contain obstructions, line of sight is not blocked unless the obstructions are on both sides of the line.

Memoir '44:

Imagine a line drawn from the center of the hex containing the battling unit to the center of the hex containing the enemy target. The line of sight is considered blocked if any hex (or part of a hex) intercepting this imaginary line segment contains an obstruction. Obstructions include units (friends or foes) or certain type of terrain features.

The terrain in the target hex does not block line of sight.

When the imaginary line runs along the edge of one or several hexes which contain obstructions, the line of sight is not blocked, unless the obstructions stand somewhere along both sides of the line segment.
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Marcus Lind
Sweden
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Wow! Those rules are way easier to understand. No shifting to worry about.
 
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Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
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The rules are pretty straightforward, once you know how they work.

You draw line of sight from center-to-center for all ranged attacks. The only time you "shift" is if the LOS goes along the edge of two hexes, and the only purpose to the shifting is to determine if shifting "unblocks" LOS, and which direction the attack enters the target hex from. It's not really changing the underlying LOS.

If the LOS doesn't go along a hex edge, no shifting is allowed (or necessary).

In practice, the only time the shifting is needed is when you are shooting a hex that's an even number of spaces away, and in the direction of the "corner" of the hex you are in.


You may say those other rules are "easier", but they are also MUCH more restrictive (and I don't think that's a good thing for this particular game). Plus, they don't answer the question of which direction the attack comes from (which may not be important in those other games, but is VERY important in BL2E).
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Garrett
United States
Tucson
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It's already been said several times, but I'll say it my way because maybe it will make a difference for some future reader.

You never shift a line to DETERMINE line of sight. Line of Sight is a simple fact of measuring from the center of one hex to the center of the other and checking if the line crosses any hexes with units or blocking terrain. If so, you can't make a ranged attack. If not, making a ranged attack is legal.

Unlike other C&C games where units always retreat to their own board edge, BattleLore Second Edition has units retreating away from the attacker. This means that you have to determine which direction the attack is coming from in order to resolve retreats correctly. In a Melee situation, it's really easy; the attack is coming from one side of the hex, so the retreating unit moves exactly backwards, away from the attacker's hex. For ranged units, you have to use the line of sight line. Whatever side of the hex that line crosses is the side of the hex that is under attack, so retreats will be resolved exactly opposite of that side of the hex.

But things get tricky if line from the center of one hex to the center of the other hex goes through the corner of the target hex. Which side is the attack considered to be coming from? In this case, you SHIFT the line, just a little bit -- just enough so that the line is now going through a side of the hex and not the corner. This side is now the side that is under attack, so the target of the attack will retreat away from that edge of the hex.

Now, the attacker usually gets to choose which way to shift the line before attacking. However, there are some cases where the shift is restricted. If shifting the line would cause the line of sight to be obstructed, then the attack can't go to that side of the target hex and must be shifted the other direction, thus determining how the target will retreat. If shifting the line causes it to be obstructed on BOTH sides, the line of sight is considered obstructed and the attack cannot be made; you can't shoot between two hexes of blocking terrain or units.

(Obviously there are exceptions. Sometimes units can shoot over other units and sometimes blocking terrain doesn't block a specific attack, but I'm ignoring those exceptions at the moment.)
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Marcus Lind
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I stand corrected. "Shift" is indeed of importance for game play and understanding of how ranged attacks work.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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Budgernaut wrote:
It's already been said several times, but I'll say it my way because maybe it will make a difference for some future reader.

You never shift a line to DETERMINE line of sight. Line of Sight is a simple fact of measuring from the center of one hex to the center of the other and checking if the line crosses any hexes with units or blocking terrain. If so, you can't make a ranged attack. If not, making a ranged attack is legal.

Unlike other C&C games where units always retreat to their own board edge, BattleLore Second Edition has units retreating away from the attacker. This means that you have to determine which direction the attack is coming from in order to resolve retreats correctly. In a Melee situation, it's really easy; the attack is coming from one side of the hex, so the retreating unit moves exactly backwards, away from the attacker's hex. For ranged units, you have to use the line of sight line. Whatever side of the hex that line crosses is the side of the hex that is under attack, so retreats will be resolved exactly opposite of that side of the hex.

But things get tricky if line from the center of one hex to the center of the other hex goes through the corner of the target hex. Which side is the attack considered to be coming from? In this case, you SHIFT the line, just a little bit -- just enough so that the line is now going through a side of the hex and not the corner. This side is now the side that is under attack, so the target of the attack will retreat away from that edge of the hex.

Now, the attacker usually gets to choose which way to shift the line before attacking. However, there are some cases where the shift is restricted. If shifting the line would cause the line of sight to be obstructed, then the attack can't go to that side of the target hex and must be shifted the other direction, thus determining how the target will retreat. If shifting the line causes it to be obstructed on BOTH sides, the line of sight is considered obstructed and the attack cannot be made; you can't shoot between two hexes of blocking terrain or units.

(Obviously there are exceptions. Sometimes units can shoot over other units and sometimes blocking terrain doesn't block a specific attack, but I'm ignoring those exceptions at the moment.)


Well said!
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