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Subject: Scoring question rss

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Dustin Boatman
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Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con and after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did, I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?
 
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Remus Rhymus
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If no one enables scoring, then no one scores any crystals or territories that round. If a player enables scoring, then only that player scores their territories (control tokens) and then every player scores the crystals in the territories they control.
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Jason Preder
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Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.
 
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Remus Rhymus
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MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?


Not the only way to score. Players score during battles for winning the territory objective and attrition, players score for prisoners, players score when playing cards with the score symbol, Pilgrims and Humans can score using skills.
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Jason Preder
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remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?


Not the only way to score. Players score during battles for winning the territory objective and attrition, players score for prisoners, players score when playing cards with the score symbol, Pilgrims and Humans can score using skills.


Thanks, I only played the game 3 times and I am now done with it. The crystals are the only tangible way to score big though. I had totally forgot about all the other points, but they are fairly insignificant anyhow in my opinion.
 
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Dustin Boatman
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MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.


No, I am not removing crystals. The question was, does everyone still score crystals every round no matter if enable scoring was played or not. i was under the impression that you score crystals every round, but if someone enables scoring that player also scores his control tokens. And there are tons of ways to score significant amounts of points in this game, not just crystals.
 
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Dustin Boatman
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remus wrote:
If no one enables scoring, then no one scores any crystals or territories that round. If a player enables scoring, then only that player scores their territories (control tokens) and then every player scores the crystals in the territories they control.


is this the correct way to play? if so, that significantly changes the way I have been playing. It also may help me with dealing with humans. how did I mess up this rule for this long?
 
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James Mathias
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Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


Scoring only happens if a player enables scoring as one of their actions, or if in the last round the pre-printed event enables scoring.

When scoring happens, the activating player (denoted by the color of the enable scoring disc) will score 1 point for each territory in which they have a control marker. Then all players will score 1 point for each crystal in territories in which they have a control marker (remember the Trogs player will only score half the amount of crystals they control).

If no player enabled scoring, then no scoring round occurs.
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Dustin Boatman
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jmathias wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


Scoring only happens if a player enables scoring as one of their actions, or if in the last round the pre-printed event enables scoring.

When scoring happens, the activating player (denoted by the color of the enable scoring disc) will score 1 point for each territory in which they have a control marker. Then all players will score 1 point for each crystal in territories in which they have a control marker (remember the Trogs player will only score half the amount of crystals they control).

If no player enabled scoring, then no scoring round occurs.


lol, I failed on this rule miserably all this time. Looks like I will be correcting myself to everyone who has played with me.
 
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Remus Rhymus
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MilkFromACow wrote:
remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?


Not the only way to score. Players score during battles for winning the territory objective and attrition, players score for prisoners, players score when playing cards with the score symbol, Pilgrims and Humans can score using skills.


Thanks, I only played the game 3 times and I am now done with it. The crystals are the only tangible way to score big though. I had totally forgot about all the other points, but they are fairly insignificant anyhow in my opinion.


While they are the most obvious way to score big, crystals aren't the only tangible way for scoring big.
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Grant Rodiek
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Lots of replies here, but just to chime in (hi all!)

1. Players can score points in battle (attrition, winning region control objective)
2. Certain Skills can lead to points

BUT PRIMARILY

If a player enables scoring, the player who did so a.) gets bonus points (1 per Control token) and b.) everyone scores the crystals in regions they control.

You do NOT score crystals OR control tokens if nobody enables scoring.

EXCEPTION

The last round, scoring is automatically enabled, and no players can enable it. In this case, nobody gets the control token bonus. People only score crystals.
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Grant Rodiek
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Pathosis wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.


No, I am not removing crystals. The question was, does everyone still score crystals every round no matter if enable scoring was played or not. i was under the impression that you score crystals every round, but if someone enables scoring that player also scores his control tokens. And there are tons of ways to score significant amounts of points in this game, not just crystals.


If scoring is not enabled, you do not score.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.


Hi! You note the rulebook is bad. In this case, the rules are as follows:

Scoring (Section headed, boxed)
(If enabled) - this, I believe clearly notes "if scoring was enabled"

The first line then says: "If scoring was enabled, the player who..." and so forth.

I'd like to know what we should have done differently here. If the game is successful, we might print more units. Maybe we revise rulebook. I see a lot of folks saying "the rules are bad," so I'd like to know here what we should do to improve?

The #1 thing I assume, which is implied but not explicitly stated, is a sentence that states: If a player or Event did not enable scoring this Round, skip this phase.
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Jason Preder
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Pathosis wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.


No, I am not removing crystals. The question was, does everyone still score crystals every round no matter if enable scoring was played or not. i was under the impression that you score crystals every round, but if someone enables scoring that player also scores his control tokens. And there are tons of ways to score significant amounts of points in this game, not just crystals.


No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.
 
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Jason Preder
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HerrohGrant wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:
Pathosis wrote:
Hey guys, I have bee playing/teaching this game since Gen Con after I watched Jongetsgames run through he recently did I am starting to wonder if I am doing the scoring phase correctly. The way I have been playing it was that if scoring wasn't enabled by anyone, no one scores for control tokens, but everyone still scores all of their crystals every round, is that correct? The way Jon played it was that if scoring wasn't enabled you completely skip the scoring phase and no one scores any crystals. Which is correct?


I believe Jon played it correctly. The controlling crystals are really the only way to score. You are not removing the crystals from the board are you?

edit:
Also, I am not trying to make you feel silly. The rule book is pretty, but not very functional and quite bad at teaching you the rules of the game. Jon usually does a much better job. Really liking his playthroughs.


Hi! You note the rulebook is bad. In this case, the rules are as follows:

Scoring (Section headed, boxed)
(If enabled) - this, I believe clearly notes "if scoring was enabled"

The first line then says: "If scoring was enabled, the player who..." and so forth.

I'd like to know what we should have done differently here. If the game is successful, we might print more units. Maybe we revise rulebook. I see a lot of folks saying "the rules are bad," so I'd like to know here what we should do to improve?

The #1 thing I assume, which is implied but not explicitly stated, is a sentence that states: If a player or Event did not enable scoring this Round, skip this phase.

That is a great question Grant. I'm not sure exactly what the problem was, but if I hadn't had a demo game at Gen Con, I think I would have been lost. I think the biggest challenge of that rulebook is presenting some concepts that are new, like the battle board and variable round length and scoring, in a way that isn't confusing. For a game to have variable length, many people need an easy to understand reason about how and why this is occurring, and maybe that is part of the problem too. Why isn't the game just a fixed 5 rounds? I'm still not sure myself, other than some comments made about runaway leaders and shortening a game instead of having a better way to handle kingmaking?
I wish I could spend a bit more time on figuring out exactly what was ineffective in the rulebook for Portal, but the reality is that I have so many games I'd rather play, that 3 plays was enough for me.
People have talked about balance issues, and although I didn't call them out myself, my 3 games presented the imbalance in the same way. Red was in last every time and the player was the most confused about how to score and use their units effectively. Each time I played, it was with different people or a mixture of different people, so this could be an initial reaction thing too.
Some of the game mechanics are unfamiliar and it is hard to understand or develop a strategy when this is the case. For this type of game, we still prefer Blood Rage. It is much more aggressive, but we feel the asymmetry through card drafting works better for us than asymmetry through initial design. This will not be the case for everyone.
Sorry this derailed from the initial question so much.
I guess the take away is that the OP was playing the scoring wrong, and that the rule book needs to find a better way to introduce "new" mechanics to rule readers that make sound sense.
I would assume this happens, but did anyone new to the game try playing the game from the final ruleset? It would be beneficial to make this happen, and then watch said individuals for what they are doing right, wrong, or ask questions about, then modify the ruleset until it doesn't happen so much.
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Remus Rhymus
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MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.
 
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Jason Preder
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remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.

Even though the Pilgrims seem more prone to win, especially the games I played, I didn't find that a significant amount of points came from them hording personal crystals. First, they have to build buildings to collect them, and then they have to spend them to score them I believe. They could maybe get a few points every one of the potential 15 rounds max you will get the whole game. Not many points when you can just control 1 or 2 territories with a 5 point crystal in it and enable scoring.
Like I've said though, my experience is 3 games, but others have posted about balance issues, etc. in other threads that are much more articulate than anything I can suggest.
I think the key to the game is being VERY familiar with your faction, and I have only ever played with the default ability of each faction as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you played with other abilities or more than one as suggested in future plays, that faction balance could shift entirely.
 
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James Mathias
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remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.


Keep in mind Pilgrims do not score crystals in their pool, only crystals in regions where they have a control marker.
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Grant Rodiek
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remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.


Yeah, pilgrims can score CRAZY points from their default skill if they work it up. And, machines can score TONS of points for attrition.
 
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jmathias wrote:
remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.


Keep in mind Pilgrims do not score crystals in their pool, only crystals in regions where they have a control marker.


To be clear, they do NOT score crystals in their pool from enable scoring. They DO from their skill.
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Remus Rhymus
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jmathias wrote:
remus wrote:
MilkFromACow wrote:

No, there is no other significant way to score BIG points other than enabling scoring. A few points from cards and battles isn't significant. I'm sure you'll notice this after a few more games. It will be key for certain factions to dominate regions and enable scoring every round if possible. This is key to winning.



Pilgrims can get VP engines going and score significant points round after round, for example. In some games, there may be only one player who truly benefits from enabling scoring. After that player uses the card to enable, it may be several rounds before getting that card back. If no one else is enabling scoring because it's not beneficial for them, the points you get from skills, battles and prisoners become much more significant.


Keep in mind Pilgrims do not score crystals in their pool, only crystals in regions where they have a control marker.


Yeah, I wasn't implying that they score the crystals in their pool during regular scoring. They score crystals in the pool from their skill. The key is to get 3 harvesters ASAP and run all three every action possible then score your pool at the end of each round using the skill. Not saying it's easy to do, but that is the strategy to go for as far as I can tell.
 
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