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Subject: Linked Campaigns... rss

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Tim Reece
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Has anybody come up with a good working formula for linked campaigns that makes sense. I love, love, love this game, but the one area that is very lacking is a linked campaign. I've read all the threads I could find on the subject, but this area still seems like a letdown.

The present rules from the DVG website basically have you gaining nothing from scenario to scenario. I've seen some suggest that you should keep damage and stress. Makes sense, but not if you lose all XP, promotions unless you can pay for them, and any left over SO points.

I've played a few games and wanted to start playing a linked Libya 2011 campaign. I started with Holding Action, which has 30 SO and you gain 5 per day. At the end of the scenario I used as much SO as I could to R&R some pilots and fix some aircraft. I still have 4 SO left over. Now let's say I want to move to Show of Force which also has a 30 pt starting SO. If I keep the same squad of aircraft and pilots, I am left with 4 SO going into the first day to arm my aircraft, buy scouts, and have some wiggle room. That's on top of demoting a handful of pilots who were promoted during the previous scenario. Just doesn't feel right to lose left over SO and lose promotions. I realize that if I keep them, then it could make the balance of later missions out of whack.

I enjoy this game a lot, but I feel without a solid linked campaign system I will begin to tire of it.

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jeff
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I was going to make something myself once and then got busy and distracted. The DVG rules for doing it make no sense to me and don't seam very fun, plus DVG support on the game is very poor. I was going to make it so pilots could keep their levels and continue to grow better etc...

You own the game now, think of it as a good starting point to design your own game from it. The best thing to do is just try stuff out and go for it. IF you think your onto something test it a few times, brainstorm different situations that could be abused and taken advantage of, patch those holes and write it up. Maybe come up with a good order to the missions etc. Post it in the variants section, as like a challenge for people to try to finish and win using your rules.

Honestly... when it comes down to it, because it's a solo game, as long as your happy with how ever you design something that's all that matters.
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Aaron B
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I do like the idea of continuity...

Haven't seen or looked for any 'DVG Official' rules on the topic, so was interested to see the comment related to the DVG rules not making sense. Didn't know there were any, so might have to check now.

Mind you, if there are official rules covering any of this, I have not read them yet, but... Carrying over Pilot Stress and Aircraft damage seems a logical place to start. A few things that come to mind:

1) If I get to carryover pilots and aircraft then I think when I start the next mission I should not get the benefit of any starting SO points. Rather, I'm thinking my SO points for starting the next mission need to be based on remaining SO points from the last campaign.

2) I think the VP points earned in a prior campaign should carryover too and be allowed to purchase new pilots and aircraft and do repairs and so forth in the new campaign (as allowed in a single campaign). But I also think there should be a VP point cost requirement for purchasing the next campaign. ...understanding that not all campaigns should cost the same.

3) Might consider VP to SO exchange rate too so we could convert VP's to SO points and vice-versa. Keeping in mind that currently any aircraft costs 2 VP's to purchase and the associated SO cost of each covers a pretty wide range.

4) The idea of tracking pilot advancement appeals to me as there really seems to be little ability to advance (one level if lucky) within a 3-4 day campaign given the XP cost. Currently the pilot experience feels very much like an initial setup only game choice.

5) Wondering a little bit about the ability to advance through these campaigns in the correct chronological order. On the one hand, it wouldn't seem fair to field units before they were available. On the other hand, I loved the movie "Final Countdown" and am totally open to a scenario that involves the Nimitz sailing into a time-warp hurricane and sending out Tomcats from Hornet Leader to pummel Zeros from Corsair Leader. Meh, so what's the big deal having a few drones in the 1980's?





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Moe45673
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TAL Linked Campaign Rules

Reading those rules, it doesn't sound like you lose all progress. In a normal campaign, all Pilots start off Average and you can modify this by either spending SOs or decreasing the skill of another pilot. With the linked campaigns, any pilot who levelled up to "Skilled" or "Veteran" remains there for the next one. All they lose are the unspent XP from the last campaign, not "all XP ever".

Perfectly sound to me. The only real issue is the one about possibly losing members of your squadron due to insufficient starting SOs to pay for them all, but in such a case you can thematically say they are sitting out as you can't afford them. They can return for a later campaign
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Tim Reece
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Moe45673 wrote:
TAL Linked Campaign Rules

Reading those rules, it doesn't sound like you lose all progress. In a normal campaign, all Pilots start off Average and you can modify this by either spending SOs or decreasing the skill of another pilot. With the linked campaigns, any pilot who levelled up to "Skilled" or "Veteran" remains there for the next one. All they lose are the unspent XP from the last campaign, not "all XP ever".

Perfectly sound to me. The only real issue is the one about possibly losing members of your squadron due to insufficient starting SOs to pay for them all, but in such a case you can thematically say they are sitting out as you can't afford them. They can return for a later campaign


According to the rules you linked from the DVG website, you have to pay for all of the promotions your pilots earned in the previous scenario. Considering that you should carry over stress and damage, I don't see how one can afford to pay for the promotions earned at least in earlier missions. That is what I was referring to with regards to losing progress. In the scenario I just finished, I spent almost all remaining SO on fixing aircraft and limiting as much stress carrying over as possible. That just doesn't seem like a good flow to me. My concern still remains if I choose to carry over SO in some capacity then it will make the later missions very easy because my pilots will all be aces.
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Tim Reece
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xljedi wrote:
I do like the idea of continuity...

Haven't seen or looked for any 'DVG Official' rules on the topic, so was interested to see the comment related to the DVG rules not making sense. Didn't know there were any, so might have to check now.

Mind you, if there are official rules covering any of this, I have not read them yet, but... Carrying over Pilot Stress and Aircraft damage seems a logical place to start. A few things that come to mind:

1) If I get to carryover pilots and aircraft then I think when I start the next mission I should not get the benefit of any starting SO points. Rather, I'm thinking my SO points for starting the next mission need to be based on remaining SO points from the last campaign.

2) I think the VP points earned in a prior campaign should carryover too and be allowed to purchase new pilots and aircraft and do repairs and so forth in the new campaign (as allowed in a single campaign). But I also think their should be a VP point cost requirement for purchasing the next campaign. ...understanding that not all campaigns should cost the same.

3) Might consider VP to SO exchange rate too so we could convert VP's to SO points and vice-versa. Keeping in mind that currently any aircraft costs 2 VP's to purchase and the associated SO cost of each covers a pretty wide range.

4) The idea of tracking pilot advancement appeals to me as there really seems to be little ability to advance (one level if lucky) within a 3-4 day campaign given the XP cost. Currently the pilot experience feels very much like an initial setup only game choice.

5) Wondering a little bit about the ability to advance through these campaigns in the correct chronological order. On the one hand, it wouldn't seem fair to field units before they were available. On the other hand, I loved the movie "Final Countdown" and am totally open to a scenario that involves the Nimitz sailing into a time-warp hurricane and sending out Tomcats from Hornet Leader to pummel Zeros from Corsair Leader. Meh, so what's the big deal having a few drones in the 1980's?

There are rules on the website and they were linked above. They are very limited.

I like your first three ideas and something just came to me that might be a good option. What if you earn SO points based on how well you did in the scenario? For instance in Libya 2011 you get a score of great for 25+ VP, Good from 17-24, Adequate from 13-16, Poor from 10-12, and Dismal 9 and below. I think Dismal and Poor could earn you a SO penalty of some kind, while Adequate earns you 2 SO, Good 3 SO, and Great 4 SO. Just an idea to work through.
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Moe45673
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Fair enough. I saw that as allowing you to pay for pilot promotions without first resetting their skill level.

Perhaps a variant might help, such as after each campaign, one pilot gets their baseline skill level bumped up by one for free and for all future campaigns. Perhaps a reward for a Great rating. Plenty of room to play around
 
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Aaron B
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jtrbucks wrote:
What if you earn SO points based on how well you did in the scenario? For instance in Libya 2011 you get a score of great for 25+ VP, Good from 17-24, Adequate from 13-16, Poor from 10-12, and Dismal 9 and below. I think Dismal and Poor could earn you a SO penalty of some kind, while Adequate earns you 2 SO, Good 3 SO, and Great 4 SO. Just an idea to work through.


Yeah, that's kinda where I was going with the VP to SO exchange rate. If you score in those ranges, it's because you have VP to trade. I would be very hesitant to award any additional SO points at the end of a campaign beyond the SO points that you ended with.

Remember you are carrying forward a squad of aircraft already and if you can buy anymore than maybe 1 or 2 aircraft you might be way overpowered for the missions and campaigns that follow.

The whole scoring thing at the end to convert VP points to a "Dismal to Great" pat on the back doesn't do too much for me in the regular game. I'd completely disregard that rating system in favor of a linked-campaign challenge that puts a VP point cost on the next campaign.

I think I could come up with a fair cost to purchase the next campaign though. If we use those VP point ranges and maybe set the cost of the next campaign either at the top of the "Adequate" range or bottom of the "Good Range" I think it maybe gives enough wiggle room to be able to buy the campaign and still have a handful of points to maybe buy another aircraft or repair/replace existing ones.

I also like the idea of being able to use VP points between campaigns to buy field promotions! ...maybe one VP = 5 experience points?

As I think about it, if you go this route... I'm thinking the VP exchange rate to SO points can just be disregarded because you would logically use all VP's to ready yourself for the next turn.

THEN... a more meaningful thing to track your success by might be how many campaigns were you able to string together before finding yourself in a situation where you couldn't afford to buy the next one?

So there is a balance component to be considered when pricing the various VP campaigns. If I can easily make it through every campaign in the box, the corresponding VP prices may need adjustment. I think with a list of the VP points possible from each campaign, and taking into consideration the SO points each gives at setup... I could probably model-out a fair VP cost structure.

Note: At this point, I may tinker with a model in Excel a bit to see if I can tune a "VP Cost Campaign Formula" that might be usable and not veer too from how the VPs can currently be utilized in a single campaign. I'd probably post it to the Variants forum though. ...and I should take a moment to read the rules that are already out there (which are a blocked URL for me at the moment). But I'd be happy to continue along with the idea for a bit.



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Tim Reece
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Sounds like we are thinking similarily. I was basing mine off the DVG rules where you lose your left over SO pts. The way to earn some is based off on how well you scored in the scenario. Best case you would probably have 4 extra SO to play with to use however you want. For me is probably use them on promotions. I like your idea but it sounds like it could be complicated. Mine is a little more simple. Maybe too simple.
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Aaron B
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Definitely work on developing your idea... actually, this is all your idea really. I was no where near the point of tinkering with linked campaigns until I saw you mention it.

I'll tinker with something on my side this evening/weekend and maybe the numbers will work out? If I were to bet, I might think the developers already thought it through and there's a reason why they made their recommendation.

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Tim Reece
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Due to throwing out my back and getting sick, I haven't had much time to play in the past couple of weeks, but I have been tinkering around with my idea to award SO points based on performance of the scenario. I think it has worked out pretty well so far. In a couple of scenarios it enabled me to repair some much needed damage that would have otherwise made the next scenario almost impossible. Other times it allowed me to pay for an earned promotion. I will keep trying it through another campaign or two after I'm back up to playing.
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Howard Jones
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I'm late to this thread, but it's very interesting. I hope you'll keep us posted about your linked campaign ideas.

And here's hoping your back feels better soon as well!
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