Roberta Yang
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We tried the first Prime Evil script. After the end of the first loop, we had enough information that we could 100% identify every role, so we just skipped the remaining loops, went straight to the Final Guess, and won.

We were blocking some of the Mastermind's plans pretty effectively that loop so the Mastermind ended up leaking a little more information than would have been ideal, but even if things had gone exactly as planned I don't see how the Mastermind could possibly survive the recommended 3-4 loops with such a small cast of characters.

Here's the relevant information gained during the loop:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
- A Curse began the game on the School.
- The Office Worker admitted to being a Serial Killer.
- The Office Worker and Police Officer ended the first day alone together, but the Police Officer did not die.
- The Rich Man's Daughter had 2 paranoia on her for a few days, but nothing in particular happened.
- The Boy Student refused goodwill the first day.
- The loop ended during the final day's incident phase, when Evangelium of the Dead killed no characters except the Shrine Maiden, bringing the total number of corpses in that location to 4. The protagonists were not killed, and Day End was not reached.
- The only six characters present were the ones named above and the Class Rep. The mastermind confirmed that there was no Godly Being, since we knew everything assuming that there was no Godly Being, and if we'd played out the remaining loops there would be no way to hide the Godly Being's non-existence.

If you're planning on masterminding this script and therefore don't mind being spoiled, you might enjoy treating this as a puzzle and seeing if you can deduce all the roles yourself first. The above information is all you need.

The script seems like it would be better at 1-2 loops, certainly no more than 2; 3-4 seems impossible for the Mastermind with so few characters. The Prime Evil mechanics really do seem interesting and fun, but with only 4 Prime Evil scripts included it seems very wasteful for one of them to be so trivial. I love all these new tragedy sets but I wish they were properly fleshed out with more scripts like Basic Tragedy instead of getting only 4 or so apiece.
 
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Roberta Yang
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The core problem with this script is that the Mastermind's intended route doesn't actually work. Specifically,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the intended coverup doesn't work at all. The Mastermind's handbook says this:

"Don’t fail to place Curses each and every
loop. The basic goal should be to go for a
“Noble Bloodline” coverup"

"The Office Worker and the
Police Officer you can just leave alone. The
Office Worker will admit he’s the Serial
Killer eventually, and when he does, the
Police Officer should be mistaken for the
Vampire."

So you're trying to bluff being in The Noble Bloodline, Witch's Curse, and one of the two Serial Killer subplots. The problem is that Noble Bloodline has 2 roles, Witch's Curse has 2 roles, and the Serial Killer subplots each have 3 roles; since none of them have a "max" overlap, that's 7 roles total. This is obviously not possible with 6 characters. The coverup doesn't work at all because the protagonists can disprove the coverup immediately: not by spending a loop testing their theories in-game but by basic addition.

The intended way of surviving the Final Guess also obviously doesn't work:

"For the Final Guess, you should hide
the Ghost and the Show-Off."

But you just said to leave the Police Officer alone with the Serial Killer to expose him as an Unkillable character. That reveals him as the Show-Off, since no Unkillable characters except the Show-Off can appear in a Cursed Land script. And since every character has a role, exposing all but one character exposes everyone.

The script needs a 7th character to work. It's not playable at all as written.

It really seems like the script writer really didn't think this one through at all.
 
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Christian K
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So the question is if this is a design mistake or some kind of error during translation.
 
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Roberta Yang
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Muemmelmann wrote:
So the question is if this is a design mistake or some kind of error during translation.

I hadn't even thought of that. Just about all my issues with this game have been with ZMan's printing rather than with the game itself, so I suppose it's possible that an extra Person is missing from the mastermind script card in this translation.

That being said,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the stuff about exposing the Police Officer as Unkillable and then being told to hide the Show-Off doesn't seem like it can be a translation problem.
 
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Aidan Robison
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So I ran this script yesterday with the proposed fix of
Spoiler (click to reveal)
including the Patient as an additional Person
and it worked well. It seemed particularly justified when the Protagonists started listing all of the possible plot combinations and the issue with the script would have otherwise been revealed.

I was not a fan of the advice for masterminds given for the script and came up with what I believe is a much stronger line to take, so here are my suggestions below:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Loop 1: use vertical movement on the Shrine Maiden, attach the Curse to her and win when she dies to it at the end of day 2.

Obviously this depends on the meta you have with your group. My group prefers to spend loop 1 going hard in on goodwill to gain information and so this was not a particularly risky play (albeit still stressful in the moment). If your group likes making semi-random movements, maybe this is too risky for you.

The other two cards for day 1 are a little more fluid to your needs with your group. I personally went with (and recommend) Paranoia +1 on the Office Worker and the Class Rep. The latter is purely for contingency planning if the Shrine Maiden doesn't move as planned. The former is set up for loop 2, and may reduce the odds of a the Protagonists playing goodwill on the Office Worker.

Presuming day 1 goes as planned, day 2 is just about shutting down information. If the Office Worker got goodwill on day 1 (as happened to me), Forbid Goodwill must go there. If not and the Boy Student didn't go to 2 goodwill on day 1, that's the next best place for it unless you want to gamble they won't play for it day 2.

Remember that the curse kill on the Key Person happens before the Serial Killer's power would activate, so you do not need to defend against the possibility of the Serial Killer being revealed this way as the loop will end first.

The Protagonists only have the curse and the Key Person as information to work with at this point, and as these could both be from subplots they cannot formally rule out any of the main plots.


Loop 2: use vertical movement on the Shrine Maiden and diagonal movement on the Office Worker, killing the Key Person with the Serial Killer on day 1.

Because the Shrine Maiden cannot enter the City, playing vertical movement guarantees she will end day 1 in the Shrine or the School. If the Protagonists don't block this, repeat loop 1. The Serial Killer is pretty much revealed by the diagonal movement anyway so it's not a huge gain anyway.

The benefit of playing Paranoia +1 on the Office Worked in loop 1 is that it looks entirely normal to do so again in loop 2. That combined with the Police Officer having not died loop 1, day 1 (and the threat of diagonal movement instead being on the Shrine Maiden) should make this a reasonably sure kill. Again, you may disagree depending on your group.

I again went with Paranoia+1 on the Class Rep as contingency planning, and also for consistency to make it look like a repeat of loop 1.

In my game it went as planned, with the Protagonists managing to find in loop 1 that the Boy Student had goodwill refusal. What is nice at this point is that if you've kept the information to this level they only know that there is a curse, a Key Person, a role with goodwill refusal (if they've found this out), and either a Nightmare or a Serial Killer and an unkillable role. This leaves a wide range of possible set ups:
-Night Mist Nightmare with Witch's Curse and The Key Girl (three roles pinned down but searching for a hiding Conspiracy Theroist)
-Noble Bloodline with Witch's Curse and Those With Habits
-Noble Bloodline with Witch's Cure and Panic and Obsession
-The Cursed Land with The Key Girl and Panic and Obsession
-The Cursed Land with The Key Girl and Those With Habits, if the goodwill refusal has not been uncovered.


Loop 3: threaten the above, while setting up a kill of the Protagonists with either the main plot on day 3, Sacrilegious Murder on day 3 or Evangelium of the Dead on day 4.

If you're playing a fourth loop as well, you really want to make it the Sacrilegious Murder option if possible. The Coward is hidden up to this point and contriving to reach 2 paranoia on her in day 3 in an area adjacent to the Shrine Maiden is the best shock kill to aim for, especially as the Protagonists will be wary of the curse being reattached to the Shrine Maiden (unless you let it attach to the City). This then still leaves the uncertainty of whether Noble Bloodline or The Cursed Land is in play.

Sadly I can only suggest not to do what I did, as having set this up I completely threw it away.

My main mistake was in arbitrarily attaching the curse to the Rich Man's Daughter on day 1, thinking that her usefulness would be over after activating the day 2 Missing Person but forgetting in the moment that the Ghost's ability is mandatory, not optional. For maintaining information control it's important the curse goes on the Boy Student.

In my game the Protagonists were leaning towards it being the Night Mist Nightmare option (which I would have never guessed during planning) but I neglected to play cards on the Office Worker so this went out of the window when they used his goodwill ability on day 2. I didn't feel I had the action spare to threaten more with him, but clearly should have. Keeping the Serial Killer moving can be very threatening to the Protagonists in the later game.

My earlier paranoia +1s on the Class Rep backfired somewhat as enough paranoia -1s were played on her in loop 3 that the Sacrilegious Murder could not kill the Shrine Maiden (although it did still go off with the unintended paranoia from the Ghost).

Beyond my control, I lost the game in day 4 when I forked intrigue on the City and the School to bluff The Noble Bloodline, but the Protagonists were convinced the only threat was Evangelium of the Dead on the School - they remembered neither the Vampire's second kill ability nor the pre-existing corpse count on the City - so correctly blocked the intrigue on the School and stopped the Shrine Maiden moving there. Unfortunate, but mistakes with the set should be more expected on both sides in the first play with it.

I did go quite heavy on intrigue on the School, which didn't help matters. I'd recommend using the Missing Person to put intrigue on the City to keep it less obvious. I couldn't because of the earlier glaring error of attaching the curse to the Rich Man's Daughter, which meant that the curse would be in the City and not a threat to the Shrine Maiden.


But hey, with the fix in place it was a fun experience overall, getting what you want out of a training mission.

I did however come across an unexpected issue with action timing, which I don't believe has been addressed. Namely:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Ghost and the Coward's abilities are mandatory. Unlike previous sets, the rule that all mandatory abilities happen simultaneously is not sufficient to define this situation.

Two cases came up during my play-through as my game crashed and burned in loop 3:

On day 3, the Class Rep (Coward) entered the Mastermind Ability phase with 1 paranoia. She was in the Ghost's starting location, who was a corpse.

While this case is not written down I feel that the ruling is clear: the Ghost plays 1 paranoia on the Coward, who then cannot move despite having 2 paranoia as she did not in the instant that mandatory abilities were being activated. I don't think there's a reasonable argument for the Coward moving in this case (while I would have loved it, as this would have enabled the Sacrilegious Murder to kill the Key Person that day) as it would imply that one mandatory ability could take place before the other and, possibly, that the Mastermind had a choice over the order.

On day 4, the Class Rep (Coward) entered the Mastermind Ability phase with 2 paranoia. She was in the Ghost's starting location, who was a corpse.

What I feel is less well defined is whether the Ghost can play a paranoia on the Coward in this instance. Either the Coward moves first and can't take the paranoia or, if she is a legal target, the Ghost's action is first. Either way the mandatory abilities are clearly ordered and not simultaneous.

On the spot, I made an unspoken ruling that the same order as card resolution should apply here, i.e. that movement takes place before token placement. After the game, my friends instead argued that the interpretation most in line with them being simultaneous would be to allow the paranoia to go on the Coward if desired, as it would happen at the same time as she is leaving.

The other case to consider, which did not come up in my game, is if the Coward moves into an area the Ghost can play paranoia.

Intuitively, I would think that the Coward cannot gain the paranoia in this circumstance as it expressly orders the mandatory abilities. My reaction to thinking about this case makes me doubt my read on the second case, as card resolution order would imply the Coward could gain the paranoia here.

I don't think this can be mastermind's choice (it's important that two Serial Killers are forced to kill each other), so this needs a well-defined order. The same order as card resolution seems like the best option, but the opposite may be the better option as it does feel more in line with the intention of making mandatory actions simultaneous.

In any case, I don't believe this is well-defined as the rules stand and would be happy for any clarification.
 
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Christian K
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We just played this script also and I found it quite hard as the mastermind (te group could identify all roles after the second loop). I will get back to this thread and participate in the fiscussioks as Infind it quite interesting. I could really have used the patient as an extra person btw
 
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Jim Bolland
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Benetram wrote:
I did however come across an unexpected issue with action timing, which I don't believe has been addressed. Namely:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Ghost and the Coward's abilities are mandatory. Unlike previous sets, the rule that all mandatory abilities happen simultaneously is not sufficient to define this situation.

Two cases came up during my play-through as my game crashed and burned in loop 3:

On day 3, the Class Rep (Coward) entered the Mastermind Ability phase with 1 paranoia. She was in the Ghost's starting location, who was a corpse.

While this case is not written down I feel that the ruling is clear: the Ghost plays 1 paranoia on the Coward, who then cannot move despite having 2 paranoia as she did not in the instant that mandatory abilities were being activated. I don't think there's a reasonable argument for the Coward moving in this case (while I would have loved it, as this would have enabled the Sacrilegious Murder to kill the Key Person that day) as it would imply that one mandatory ability could take place before the other and, possibly, that the Mastermind had a choice over the order.

On day 4, the Class Rep (Coward) entered the Mastermind Ability phase with 2 paranoia. She was in the Ghost's starting location, who was a corpse.

What I feel is less well defined is whether the Ghost can play a paranoia on the Coward in this instance. Either the Coward moves first and can't take the paranoia or, if she is a legal target, the Ghost's action is first. Either way the mandatory abilities are clearly ordered and not simultaneous.

On the spot, I made an unspoken ruling that the same order as card resolution should apply here, i.e. that movement takes place before token placement. After the game, my friends instead argued that the interpretation most in line with them being simultaneous would be to allow the paranoia to go on the Coward if desired, as it would happen at the same time as she is leaving.

The other case to consider, which did not come up in my game, is if the Coward moves into an area the Ghost can play paranoia.

Intuitively, I would think that the Coward cannot gain the paranoia in this circumstance as it expressly orders the mandatory abilities. My reaction to thinking about this case makes me doubt my read on the second case, as card resolution order would imply the Coward could gain the paranoia here.

I don't think this can be mastermind's choice (it's important that two Serial Killers are forced to kill each other), so this needs a well-defined order. The same order as card resolution seems like the best option, but the opposite may be the better option as it does feel more in line with the intention of making mandatory actions simultaneous.

In any case, I don't believe this is well-defined as the rules stand and would be happy for any clarification.


My thoughts:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think you did it right. Movement should happen first, just like it does for action cards. I like to think of it this way - the Ghost's ability would happen to any character, but not the Coward who runs away before the scary thing even has a chance to happen.


I would go with exactly what you decided. More official clarification would be very welcome!
 
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Christian K
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I found in this script that the mastermind actually had a lot of power to win, the problem is just the final guess.

I think 2-3 loops would be fair. The main problem for me was that the advice for he master mind was really useless and misleading.
 
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