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Yomi (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: beating a random opponent rss

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Dmitri Dolgov
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I own Yomi (First Ed) but I never really played it. I like the art and the idea, however, I am not sure I like this game.

Question to the in-the-know people: in this game, in a given match, what is the probability of beating a completely random opponent (i.e. who plays cards from their hand randomly)? I suspect it's not much higher than 50%, especially without heavy card counting. If I am wrong, what are the examples of plays/scenarios that could consistently beat a random opponent?
 
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Alenros
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Not an expert, but there is actually a case for playing against a random opponent for learning hand management.
This is supposed to be very basic to the game, and though I can't remember the statistic quoted, I think you are supposed to win >75%.

I'll give an example:
let's say you are playing with an aggressive and light-footed fast character (Setsuki) against a slow grappler that hits hard (Rook).
if you look at his [geekurl=http://yomi.wikia.com/wiki/Garus_Rook,_Stone_Golem]deck analysis[/geekurl] you will see he has many throws and attacks.
your character has quicker attacks, so you would probably beat whatever attack he throws at you (if it's not a special one) and he's throws will lose to your attacks.
this is an simple strategy that should statistically give you an edge.

What is missing from the full game is the mind game.
 
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Joshua Christensen
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A completely random opponent is really easy to beat. The easybot on the FantasyStrike website plays completely random and it doesn't get very many wins at all.

Grapplers playing almost nothing but throw would have a much greater then 50% chance of beating a completely random opponent. Argagarg could probably play 75% Bubble Shield and easily beat a completely random opponent.

It really isn't hard to win in this situation. Just play good cards and combo well and you should win.

However, humans are pretty bad at playing 100% random. Unless, of course, your opponent is shuffling up their hand and playing one of them at random or if they just roll a dice and pick the card it lands on.

1st edition is a ton of fun. If you enjoy 1v1 cards games and/or bluffing and/or trying to read your opponent I strongly suggest you give it a try.
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K
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COMPLETELY random? Not even choosing attacks wisely etc?

Damn near 100%.

This game sees consistent winners and losers.
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Dennis
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The "training bot" rules in the rulebook choose a random card, but cheat in that they get the better of the two possible outcomes and even then, competent players beat it >75% of the time.
Completely random I concur it's very likely in the 90s.
 
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Dom Hiob
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hmmm... I seem to really suck at this game then. I've been playing the bot for a while now. The bot is Grave, I'm playing Jaina. And while I'm slowly getting better, I'm nowhere near 75%. So either I'm terribly bad or it isn't so easy after all.

Edit. Oh, I should probably mention I'm playing the 2nd edition characters.
 
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Joshua Christensen
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DomHiob wrote:
hmmm... I seem to really suck at this game then. I've been playing the bot for a while now. The bot is Grave, I'm playing Jaina. And while I'm slowly getting better, I'm nowhere near 75%. So either I'm terribly bad or it isn't so easy after all.

Edit. Oh, I should probably mention I'm playing the 2nd edition characters.


Which bit are you playing against? Since v2 has been a thing they added another bot to play against. There's the easy bot, which plays random. And the hard bot, which plays in a way that makes more sense.
 
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Dom Hiob
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ClanNatioy wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
hmmm... I seem to really suck at this game then. I've been playing the bot for a while now. The bot is Grave, I'm playing Jaina. And while I'm slowly getting better, I'm nowhere near 75%. So either I'm terribly bad or it isn't so easy after all.

Edit. Oh, I should probably mention I'm playing the 2nd edition characters.


Which bit are you playing against? Since v2 has been a thing they added another bot to play against. There's the easy bot, which plays random. And the hard bot, which plays in a way that makes more sense.


Hm, I guess I'm playing the easy bot. The one that just randomly plays a card, uses specials abilities whenever possible and only turns his Aces if otherwise he couldn't actually play them. Oh, and he powers up for Aces whenever possible (so, the basic bot from p. 23 & 24 of the rulebook, without the green box on p. 23).
 
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Ryan D

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So here's something that will help with beating the random bot:

If you've just learned the game, you probably think of an attack as beating a throw, which is 1/3 of the triangle.

In fact, if you play a speed 0.0 attack, it actually beats 2/3 of the triangle, since it beats all throws -AND- it beats all attacks (since it outspeeds them). Similarly, in Grave vs. Jaina, a 7-throw also beats nearly 2/3 of options because it beats block/dodge and outspeeds almost all other throws in the matchup. (Block/Dodge similarly beats all attacks and goes roughly even with other block/dodges.)

Play good options, block to draw enough cards so you can do combos when you win combat, and you'll eventually get the hang of it. Good luck!

(P.S. If you get good enough to consistently beat Setsuki bot, you probably should start playing against real people! )
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Michael
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DomHiob wrote:
hmmm... I seem to really suck at this game then. I've been playing the bot for a while now. The bot is Grave, I'm playing Jaina. And while I'm slowly getting better, I'm nowhere near 75%. So either I'm terribly bad or it isn't so easy after all.

Edit. Oh, I should probably mention I'm playing the 2nd edition characters.


Perhaps an interesting aside: I am quite good at playing some charachters, Grave, Argagarg, Lum, Vendetta. I am terrible with some, Gieger, and Troq. I trust that Sirlin has in fact really balanced these characters, as such, this means to me that there are fundamental things which I don't understand about these charachters I don't play well, and that there really is a whole lot one can learn about playing a charachter in Yomi.
 
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Aaron White
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Try switching characters. I find for some reason Jaina is harder to win with as well in bot mode, this is not just you.

I also recommend playing survival mode. Beating a bot is one thing, but the real question is how many bots can you beat? This also allows for high scores, which is great for solo.

Try using Midori, his Dragon Form can be great for reducing the bot's options and getting some consistent wins. I love Jaina though and still try to win with her, three wins is my highest before the bot got me.
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Joshua Christensen
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DomHiob wrote:
ClanNatioy wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
hmmm... I seem to really suck at this game then. I've been playing the bot for a while now. The bot is Grave, I'm playing Jaina. And while I'm slowly getting better, I'm nowhere near 75%. So either I'm terribly bad or it isn't so easy after all.

Edit. Oh, I should probably mention I'm playing the 2nd edition characters.


Which bit are you playing against? Since v2 has been a thing they added another bot to play against. There's the easy bot, which plays random. And the hard bot, which plays in a way that makes more sense.


Hm, I guess I'm playing the easy bot. The one that just randomly plays a card, uses specials abilities whenever possible and only turns his Aces if otherwise he couldn't actually play them. Oh, and he powers up for Aces whenever possible (so, the basic bot from p. 23 & 24 of the rulebook, without the green box on p. 23).


ah, never mind. That is something different from what I was talking about. I was thinking of the online bots.
 
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Dom Hiob
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Rook96 wrote:
Try switching characters. I find for some reason Jaina is harder to win with as well in bot mode, this is not just you.

I also recommend playing survival mode. Beating a bot is one thing, but the real question is how many bots can you beat? This also allows for high scores, which is great for solo.

Try using Midori, his Dragon Form can be great for reducing the bot's options and getting some consistent wins. I love Jaina though and still try to win with her, three wins is my highest before the bot got me.



To be honest, I started out playing Grave. And I won a bit vs. the bot (Jaina and Grave are at the moment the only fighters I own). So I switched roles just to see "the other side". And I lost. Which I liked, because it meant I still had quite a bit to learn. I think I won my last three games, so I'm really looking forward to the next game (seeing if I can beat your high score )

Also, it was sort of an experiment. My first thought when playing Yomi was that it might be an experts' game in a bad way. I have a hard time explaining what I mean with that. I'll try with an analogy. Economic rules are not laws of nature. They (in part) hold true because people hold them to be true and act accordingly. Now to transport this to my first thought about Yomi: I kind of thought it might have all these interesting qualities at expert level play, not because it actually had them but because that's how people were playing. For instance, the mind game about Blocks at the game's outset comes into play only if you assume that your opponent wants to build up his hand. Which in turn depends on their familiarity with "how you're supposed to play" or good strategies.

So to rule that out, I specifically chose the only opponent that won't strategize at all: The randomly playing bot. I couldn't fool myself about having "read" my opponent and I could see how far hand mangement alone would take me. As I said, I feel I have improved somewhat, but the number of games I've played so far is still too small (25 since I started recording, and some 10-15 before that) to make a judgment. If after 100 games I should be hovering around 50-55 wins, I'll call the experiment off.
 
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