$5.00
$15.00
$20.00
Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
71 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

The Others» Forums » General

Subject: Slightly rantish rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Sid Rain
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
After some time with the game, I get the sense that the models themselves aren't really all that important. Don't get me wrong, all the different models are great and extremely well done, but at times they just feel unnecessary. It just feels like the entire Core Game with expansions could've been condensed down into one or two boxes (Core Game + Apocalypse expansion). For the Heroes it seems like they could've included maybe 8 or 9 Hero models in the base game and listed out a bunch of alternate stats/abilities using cards and you just pick and choose what you want.

For the different Sins/Acolytes it's even worse because they all have the exact same stats and model counts, just different powers (though Sins have different card decks). You could have the same set of monster models to represent all of the 7 Sins and just list out what each of the 7 Sins special abilities are and include the cards. Same with the Acolytes, aside from a reskin and different powers, they all function about the same.

The only expansion that really seems like it changes the game in a meaningful way is the Apocalypse expansion. Maybe that's just CMON's business model, it just seems a tad bit wasteful and cash-grabby. Shouldn't classic games be able to stand on their own merits without requiring you to buy expansions to feel like the game is "Complete"? The name of the game is literally "The Others: 7 Sins" and yet you only get TWO Sins in the Core Game box. So of course you're going to pick up the other Sin expansions.

I still like the game and don't regret backing it, I just wish each of the expansions had actually added something more substantial to the game that changed how the game was played or added new rules, not just more options.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff ...
Australia
Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
paddirn wrote:
The name of the game is literally "The Others: 7 Sins" and yet you only get TWO Sins in the Core Game box. So of course you're going to pick up the other Sin expansions.

Actually, the name of the game is literally "The Others". The 7 Sins moniker was removed prior to going to retail. Just saying.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Felipe Bulhões
Brazil
flag msg tools
mb
I kinda of agree with you. This game is expensive on purpose and they could have the seven sins in the box if they wanted. I don't see the need of a different sculpt for abominations and controllers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Crane
United States
WASHOUGAL
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Couldn't they just do that with basically any of their games? Arcadia quest or zombicide. 6 Heroes 40 sets of skills. But then again they are called Cool mini or not and they know plastic sells, and thats kind of the point. I wouldn't get excited for 40 different cards but 40 different minis now you are talking.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nigel McNaughton
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Of course the models are unnecessary, they could be replaced with cubes and cylinders mechanically. There's actually a thread about someone selling off there Blood Rage minis and playing with wooden tokens. That's pretty much true of any game with miniatures. I'm actually struggling to think of any game off the top of my head where the miniatures are fundamentally required to make the game mechanics work. You don't need minis to play Xwing or Armada for example. Selling Models is CMON's business... model. It's what we pay for, and it's what we get.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik Webb
United States
Edmonds
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Then people would complain about the opposite. Once of the major complaints about Claustrophobia was that it used one mini for each boss monster.

The same could be said of lots of games, not just CMON. It is a business/design decision.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrii Chabykin
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
mb
icarusmustburn wrote:
Weird. Sounds like you are wanting the game to be more abstract and less thematic because the sculpts don't express enough meaning to you by themselves.


Nope, he just doesn't want to pay for the same thing 5 times. One set of sculpts would suffice. Sure if you are CMoN, you would want to release a lot of plastic and make backers pay for it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Mendiola
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I kinda agree. The models themselves aren't terribly thematic to the Sin they represent.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nigel McNaughton
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chabster wrote:
icarusmustburn wrote:
Weird. Sounds like you are wanting the game to be more abstract and less thematic because the sculpts don't express enough meaning to you by themselves.


Nope, he just doesn't want to pay for the same thing 5 times. One set of sculpts would suffice. Sure if you are CMoN, you would want to release a lot of plastic and make backers pay for it. :p


There's not much forcing you buy them now. Play with whatever Acolyte rules you want, play with whatever heroes you want. About the only thing stopping you playing whatever sin you want is the difference in their card decks, but I bet you could proxy them easily enough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kain
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
paddirn wrote:
After some time with the game, I get the sense that the models themselves aren't really all that important. Don't get me wrong, all the different models are great and extremely well done, but at times they just feel unnecessary. It just feels like the entire Core Game with expansions could've been condensed down into one or two boxes (Core Game + Apocalypse expansion). For the Heroes it seems like they could've included maybe 8 or 9 Hero models in the base game and listed out a bunch of alternate stats/abilities using cards and you just pick and choose what you want.

For the different Sins/Acolytes it's even worse because they all have the exact same stats and model counts, just different powers (though Sins have different card decks). You could have the same set of monster models to represent all of the 7 Sins and just list out what each of the 7 Sins special abilities are and include the cards. Same with the Acolytes, aside from a reskin and different powers, they all function about the same.

The only expansion that really seems like it changes the game in a meaningful way is the Apocalypse expansion. Maybe that's just CMON's business model, it just seems a tad bit wasteful and cash-grabby. Shouldn't classic games be able to stand on their own merits without requiring you to buy expansions to feel like the game is "Complete"? The name of the game is literally "The Others: 7 Sins" and yet you only get TWO Sins in the Core Game box. So of course you're going to pick up the other Sin expansions.

I still like the game and don't regret backing it, I just wish each of the expansions had actually added something more substantial to the game that changed how the game was played or added new rules, not just more options.


I hundred percent agree with you.
This is one totally one of those games where the sheer quantity of plastic wasn't needed and feels it existed simply to drive the kickstarter/expansion prices/etc.

This doesn't help that even my friends whom I played with pointed out the very thing I was thinking about. "Oh, how come all the SINs are variable combinations of teeth and tentacles?" Why bother making 7 sins all seperate plastic when they all end up basically same thing. Scary mutant spiky things.

Should have done less plastic, put all the team characters and sins boards in the box and basically allowed the player to play as generic sins evil. At the end of day, many of the heroes are guy with sword, guy with gun, girl with gun, etc anyways.

Important to note that I have everything and I think the base game will be a good deal simply because you won't have to figure out how to store 7 boxes for one relatively simple game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emivaldo Sousa
Brazil
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
BathTubNZ wrote:
Of course the models are unnecessary, they could be replaced with cubes and cylinders mechanically. There's actually a thread about someone selling off there Blood Rage minis and playing with wooden tokens. That's pretty much true of any game with miniatures. I'm actually struggling to think of any game off the top of my head where the miniatures are fundamentally required to make the game mechanics work. You don't need minis to play Xwing or Armada for example. Selling Models is CMON's business... model. It's what we pay for, and it's what we get.

I get what the OP is talking about. It is not that the game should not have minis. It is, since it has, it is sometimes weird that they do not feel more unique.

CMON produces streamlined games (sometimes actually dumbed down) and models have a set of generic interchangeable atributes or have just one simple change (This monster moves one further). In games like Descent I do think each mini brings in a more different challenge (or flavor) with it. Not so much with some CMON games.

That said, ZBPB has some interesting variety and the heroes in The Others I feel that are distinct enough to give them some personality. The monsters in the Others I agree: cool minis but not much variety in gameplay - and not much personality, with some exceptions.

It is not something you pay too much attention to and I agree it is minor, but sometimes I do have the feeling that it does not matter what mini I pick up from the box. It does happen in other games too, but less frequently.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke
United Kingdom
Ipswich
flag msg tools
I'm heavily considering selling the extra minis and keeping the rules/ cards.

I really only need one set of sin characters to use all of them.

Not sure if just the models would sell for much though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sid Rain
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
BathTubNZ wrote:
Of course the models are unnecessary, they could be replaced with cubes and cylinders mechanically. There's actually a thread about someone selling off there Blood Rage minis and playing with wooden tokens. That's pretty much true of any game with miniatures. I'm actually struggling to think of any game off the top of my head where the miniatures are fundamentally required to make the game mechanics work. You don't need minis to play Xwing or Armada for example. Selling Models is CMON's business... model. It's what we pay for, and it's what we get.


I guess I meant to say the expansions are mostly unnecessary. The minis just drive up the price of the expansions for what amounts to a few extra cards worth of content.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Blasco

Brier
Washington
msg tools
mbmb
paddirn wrote:
BathTubNZ wrote:
Of course the models are unnecessary, they could be replaced with cubes and cylinders mechanically. There's actually a thread about someone selling off there Blood Rage minis and playing with wooden tokens. That's pretty much true of any game with miniatures. I'm actually struggling to think of any game off the top of my head where the miniatures are fundamentally required to make the game mechanics work. You don't need minis to play Xwing or Armada for example. Selling Models is CMON's business... model. It's what we pay for, and it's what we get.


I guess I meant to say the expansions are mostly unnecessary. The minis just drive up the price of the expansions for what amounts to a few extra cards worth of content.


Well, there are some of us who are excited for the game just because of all of the different awesome models.

I get what people are saying, the different sculpts aren't really required, but that's the case with almost all miniature based board games. It's rare for any of them to really NEED more than just a generic hero model with some sort of color ring, and a few generic monster models.

If you don't want them, I'm sure you can find someone who enjoys painting who would be willing to take them off of your hands.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Bauman
United States
Santa Cruz
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BathTubNZ wrote:
I'm actually struggling to think of any game off the top of my head where the miniatures are fundamentally required to make the game mechanics work.


Heroscape comes to mind. Line of sight originates from designated parts on the minis and is traced visually to designated hit zones on the target (you literally squat down and look at the map from their vantage). I'm sure lots of minis games do this as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke
United Kingdom
Ipswich
flag msg tools
Some people don't care about the mini's but liked the game enough to back it?

That's a fair enough reason isn't it?

Check my post history if you like; I'm really excited about this game... like more than most people were prior to it arriving. Heck I even watched the gameplay video over and over again.

But I am excited for the gameplay, not the minis. Minis just add to set up time.

I don't think they are 'worthless' by any stretch. But the rule differences and sin decks are what excites me personally; not the heap of plastic on the table.

Last time I checked; liking a game because of the gameplay and variation is just as valid as liking a game because of the production quality.

Small world would be the same game if they added mini's and Blood Rage/ The Others would he the same game if the removed them.

I'm not saying visual theme isn't important; but having one set of minis with rule swaps is enough for me personally.

That's my view though and I respect painters and mini enthusiasts will disagree.

(Sent from phone so sorry for typos).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott LeBlanc
United States
Lyman
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Only a HERETIC would play Warhammer 40K without miniatures...FOR THE EMPEROR!!!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emivaldo Sousa
Brazil
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
icarusmustburn wrote:
Seriously, this thread seems like baseless whining and nothing more. Why did any of you even back the game?

Did you not bother to look at any of the stretch goal sculpts before backing???

Are you even backers? Or just CMON haters?

The situation with the miniatures is no different than any other.

Needless to say, I disagree that the Sins' monsters sculpts are effectively interchangeable. That is pure nonsense from an artistic and thematic pov, IMO.

I am not saying this as an overly defensive backer, but as someone who has actually looked at all of the sculpts in my copy of the game.


The name of the thread is slightly ranting. I have only seen mild criticism and some personal preferences. CMON haters is a little bit much for someone that do not want to come across as overly defensive, don't you think?

Best.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R.P. Kraul
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mb
icarusmustburn wrote:
Seriously, this thread seems like baseless whining and nothing more. Why did any of you even back the game?

Did you not bother to look at any of the stretch goal sculpts before backing???

Are you even backers? Or just CMON haters?

The situation with the miniatures is no different than any other.

Needless to say, I disagree that the Sins' monsters sculpts are effectively interchangeable. That is pure nonsense from an artistic and thematic pov, IMO.

I am not saying this as an overly defensive backer, but as someone who has actually looked at all of the sculpts in my copy of the game.


In other words, you're an apologist.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
mbmbmbmbmb
Minis could, I mean SHOUDL have been replaced by cardboard stand-ups! Then the game could have been 45$ with expansions!

:shake:

As an addition: we ALL KNEW that the various sins (minis I mean) wouldn't add a LOT to the game apart from changing its appearance, I mean I backed TO:7S knowing that full well: all the rules about that were online and quite clear.

Plus: well uyou got two sins but you get the stats of all other sins everywhere, so if you don't want the minis why bother buying them????
You definitely can play seven sins with one core set if you di'nbt mind using the same minis for various sins.

Of course minis are a cash grab. OF COURSE. But man , you like having those varied minis of the table. With the KS you can even choose which sin goes which mini if you want, ain't that great? XD!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R.P. Kraul
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mb
icarusmustburn wrote:
Drpretorios wrote:
icarusmustburn wrote:
Seriously, this thread seems like baseless whining and nothing more. Why did any of you even back the game?

Did you not bother to look at any of the stretch goal sculpts before backing???

Are you even backers? Or just CMON haters?

The situation with the miniatures is no different than any other.

Needless to say, I disagree that the Sins' monsters sculpts are effectively interchangeable. That is pure nonsense from an artistic and thematic pov, IMO.

I am not saying this as an overly defensive backer, but as someone who has actually looked at all of the sculpts in my copy of the game.


In other words, you're an apologist.


Based on what "apology"? There was nothing to apologize for.

No, I am someone who actually looked to see the artistic differences that differentiate the sculpts and tie them to the theme of each Sin. These are not pre-painted minis, either, and the quantity evidently overwhelms some people from actually seeing how the details relate when unpainted. I don't paint my minis, FWIW.

Also, I bothered to look at the sculpts before I backed, instead of just auto-backing a CMON game. Something, which many if not most of the complainers apparently did not do, else they would have not bothered, unless they just enjoy backing games to whine.

Oh wait, such people apparently might exist!


Fair enough. But what I read from the OP's point isn't that the sculpts are redundant. Instead he's saying he wished the five sin expansions changed the game in a more meaningful way, and this argument has its merits. You're focusing on the aesthetics of the models; the OP, if I read his comments correctly, is saying that the difference in gameplay between one sin and another is minor, which results on the models being redundant.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Soares
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
paddirn wrote:
After some time with the game, I get the sense that the models themselves aren't really all that important. Don't get me wrong, all the different models are great and extremely well done, but at times they just feel unnecessary. It just feels like the entire Core Game with expansions could've been condensed down into one or two boxes (Core Game + Apocalypse expansion). For the Heroes it seems like they could've included maybe 8 or 9 Hero models in the base game and listed out a bunch of alternate stats/abilities using cards and you just pick and choose what you want.

For the different Sins/Acolytes it's even worse because they all have the exact same stats and model counts, just different powers (though Sins have different card decks). You could have the same set of monster models to represent all of the 7 Sins and just list out what each of the 7 Sins special abilities are and include the cards. Same with the Acolytes, aside from a reskin and different powers, they all function about the same.

The only expansion that really seems like it changes the game in a meaningful way is the Apocalypse expansion. Maybe that's just CMON's business model, it just seems a tad bit wasteful and cash-grabby. Shouldn't classic games be able to stand on their own merits without requiring you to buy expansions to feel like the game is "Complete"? The name of the game is literally "The Others: 7 Sins" and yet you only get TWO Sins in the Core Game box. So of course you're going to pick up the other Sin expansions.

I still like the game and don't regret backing it, I just wish each of the expansions had actually added something more substantial to the game that changed how the game was played or added new rules, not just more options.


Truly this could be said of any game. Scrap the minis, use standees, or just tokens with art of the character, etc. Yes, some people are ok with that and the price would look more enticing, but there are also people who like a little bit more with their game to help with theme and immersion, which means they don't mind paying a little extra for it.

That's why there are different minis/sculpts for aesthetic variance in some games, just as plain wooden cubes get replaced by wooden components that look like the resource they actually represent, and the same could be said for meeples, and cardboard coins replaced with metal coins. Of course in the grand scheme of things it is all unnecessary, but it helps to make the game "pop" which many people like. There's clearly a market for it because such things exist. Just look at Defenders of the Realm. The minions all do the same exact thing, and yet there was a demand to have the hooded robed minions to be replaced with minions that match the specific race.

Yes, it'd be nice if the sins and acolytes had greater differences, but even as the game stands, it's a fantastic game. Plus, (in my opinion), having just a few minis represent different heroes, sins, and acolytes would be super boring and unappealing to the theme of the game.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sid Rain
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Quote:
Actually, the name of the game is literally "The Others". The 7 Sins moniker was removed prior to going to retail. Just saying.


Somebody should tell CMON that because the Kickstarter page (can't be changed, I know), Amazon.com, their own product page, and the BGG page all still list it as "The Others: 7 Sins". I did a quick Google search of "CMON The Others Boardgame" and couldn't find a single listing that didn't show it as "The Others: 7 Sins". Regardless of whatever they did, the expectation and common name used by a majority of people is "The Others: 7 Sins".

I get that minis aren't a necessity for any game and that we could just use slips of paper if we wanted to, but gameplay material for all of the 7 Sins was purposely left out and broken off into "expansions" because the expectation is that completionists will want to "Catch them all". But each Sin faction is almost nearly identical to any other Sin faction (apart from cosmetics and cards). They don't feel terribly unique from each other in how they're structured and each "expansion" doesn't feel like a true expansion, the differences are mostly window-dressing.

Astute Kickstarter backers may have been privy to all that info, but what about going forward with the general public? Someone new to the game is going to see it on a store shelf, buy it, and then find out that there's an additional 5 Sins they'll need to have a full "set". If they go and buy the rest, there doesn't seem to be enough extra gameplay content with each Sin to justify not having included that stuff in the Core game. They provide some additional options for players, but don't terribly change up the game in any meaningful way.

I still like the game and bought everything just the same, but I think the game would feel more complete and self-contained if all the gameplay material for all 7 Sins was included with the Core game, and then if you wanted to splurge on the other figs you could get some booster packs with maybe some minor add-ons like items or whatever (similar to how FFG does it with Imperial Assault). Getting people to splurge on unnecessary minis is one thing and that's fine if you're up-front about it and everyone knows what they're getting into.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JH
United States
Albany
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Breaking up a big product into small parts is one way to sell it to a lot of people. Works great for X-Wing, Descent, Imperial Assault, etc. — there's a core set and a bunch of add-ons you can get, or not. Only a limited number of people are going to drop $200+ on a game in a Kickstarter campaign to get everything offered; an even smaller number are going to be willing to spend as much or more all at once to get the same product at retail. So packaging all seven sins together and charging a higher retail price accordingly is going to cut down on the number of potential retail buyers, because that game is going to be expensive. Breaking it up keeps it manageable.

You don't have to like it, but there's nothing unusual about what CMON's doing with the game. Or what lots of companies do with lots of products, particularly entertainment products. When you're interested in a TV series or a book series, do you buy one volume/season to start with, or do you buy everything available all at once? Or do you sometimes buy volume 1 and then not continue because it wasn't what you hoped it'd be? Many separate products allows a buyer to choose how deeply to get into something; an all-inclusive package does not. The a la carte approach is often going to sell more units overall.

Also, at some point you have to figure people are going to read the box and notice that not all 7 sins are in the base game. Do people sometimes accidentally pick up expansions to games they don't have? Probably. Is it a crisis when they do? Nah. Neither will be someone picking up a game called 7 Sins and realizing later that the other five are add-ons. Maybe they'll buy them, maybe they won't. But either way they have the base game (and the base game is nearly always a better value, dollars to contents, than the add-ons), which a lot wouldn't if it cost significantly more than it already does.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Chew
United States
Concord Township
Ohio
flag msg tools
Attack dog
mbmbmbmbmb
paddirn wrote:
Quote:
Actually, the name of the game is literally "The Others". The 7 Sins moniker was removed prior to going to retail. Just saying.


Somebody should tell CMON that because the Kickstarter page (can't be changed, I know), Amazon.com, their own product page, and the BGG page all still list it as "The Others: 7 Sins". I did a quick Google search of "CMON The Others Boardgame" and couldn't find a single listing that didn't show it as "The Others: 7 Sins". Regardless of whatever they did, the expectation and common name used by a majority of people is "The Others: 7 Sins".

I get that minis aren't a necessity for any game and that we could just use slips of paper if we wanted to, but gameplay material for all of the 7 Sins was purposely left out and broken off into "expansions" because the expectation is that completionists will want to "Catch them all". But each Sin faction is almost nearly identical to any other Sin faction (apart from cosmetics and cards). They don't feel terribly unique from each other in how they're structured and each "expansion" doesn't feel like a true expansion, the differences are mostly window-dressing.

Astute Kickstarter backers may have been privy to all that info, but what about going forward with the general public? Someone new to the game is going to see it on a store shelf, buy it, and then find out that there's an additional 5 Sins they'll need to have a full "set". If they go and buy the rest, there doesn't seem to be enough extra gameplay content with each Sin to justify not having included that stuff in the Core game. They provide some additional options for players, but don't terribly change up the game in any meaningful way.

I still like the game and bought everything just the same, but I think the game would feel more complete and self-contained if all the gameplay material for all 7 Sins was included with the Core game, and then if you wanted to splurge on the other figs you could get some booster packs with maybe some minor add-ons like items or whatever (similar to how FFG does it with Imperial Assault). Getting people to splurge on unnecessary minis is one thing and that's fine if you're up-front about it and everyone knows what they're getting into.


$100 is the going rate for a board game with 47 detailed miniatures. That is the reason the sin boxes are additional expansions. Small boxes of expansions isn't anything new. Back in the 90s Warhammer Quest had loads of character expansions for $10-$15. They were like the sin packs, a player board, a card, and a mini. They could they have just included extra cards in the game and let people reuse miniatures? Sure, but one of the attractions to games with miniatures is the miniatures themselves.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.