Ben Maddox
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Can you have too much stuff or should we wallow in our own crapulence? You tell me.
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蓝魔
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1: Yes.
2: Scythe.
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Anthony Boydell
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You cannot have too much stuff; we're gamers FFS. Whether we're prepared to PAY for it is another question.

(re: previous poster - I disagree)...Scythe has excellent component quality and there are lots of components but that doesn't immediately make it "over-produced". You _might_ argue that unique Mech sculpts per faction are a bit 'special' but then that's a detail fully-enabled by the prolapsed money-arse that was the KS campaign. If you spend £1000s on game art when simple stick men would suffice, does THAT make it over-produced? No! It's care, attention to detail and a desire for real quality.

With >1500 games coming out each year, the best way to grab our attention is to show off proper quality: wooden cubes is going to lose out every time to custom -eeples. Especially as the tools and techniques are now in place to manufacture them at a significantly lower cost than 10 years ago!

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Rob Harper
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I agree with Tony on all that stuff what he said.

If there is overproduction, it is where you get really fancy with a very simple game. I see this all the time with traditional "games", like a tic-tac-toe set hand carved from unicorn horn, or something. Definitely overproduced, almost certainly pointless from a gaming point of view (in the case of tic-tac-toe, anything more advanced than a pen or two and a bit of paper is pointless, and you might argue that even those components are overdoing it), but nonetheless something nice to own.
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Just call him
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polyobsessive wrote:
If there is overproduction, it is where you get really fancy with a very simple game. I see this all the time with traditional "games", like a tic-tac-toe set hand carved from unicorn horn, or something. Definitely overproduced, almost certainly pointless from a gaming point of view (in the case of tic-tac-toe, anything more advanced than a pen or two and a bit of paper is pointless, and you might argue that even those components are overdoing it), but nonetheless something nice to own.

Right, but in this specific situation, the actual effect of overproduction on the consumer is nil. If I can buy a perfectly serviceable chess set for a tenner, surely it doesn't matter if someone out there is making one out of solid gold.

To pick an example from the hotness, if the only version of Kingdom Death I can buy is the one with tonnes of plastic and a $400 price tag then overproduction is actively getting in the way of me being able to experience that game.
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Ben O'Steen
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Overproduction? yes, it exists but it is a personal opinion.

To me, a super deluxe version of Love Letter (which is a thing) is overproduction. To someone else, it might make the whole experience better for them.

Likewise, you'll have to pry my Agricola animeeples and vegimeeples from my cold, dead hands but other players couldn't care less whether it's a meeple or cube. For me, swapping them for cubes lowers my aesthetic enjoyment of the game which affects my overall feel for it.

I've also painted a few miniatures for Mice & Mystics and Battle of Five Armies. The difference it makes to the game is huge but the effect is 99% feel and immersion, and 1% making-the-figures-easy-to-tell-apart.

If production makes the cost too high, then that cuts down the amount of people who a) can afford it b) would buy it, and c) will let "others" play with it. "Others"? You know them, the other oiks in your game club. Especially the gits with dirty hands or a penchant for picking their teeth with game cards...
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Rob Harper
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Tarnop wrote:
Right, but in this specific situation, the actual effect of overproduction on the consumer is nil. If I can buy a perfectly serviceable chess set for a tenner, surely it doesn't matter if someone out there is making one out of solid gold.

To pick an example from the hotness, if the only version of Kingdom Death I can buy is the one with tonnes of plastic and a $400 price tag then overproduction is actively getting in the way of me being able to experience that game.

Good point and good distinction.

And that point reminds me that I was recently grumbling to someone about El Grande (which many of us have agreed is probably a masterpiece ) is currently only in print (in English anyway) in a big box form containing a pile of expansions which I, for one, consider completely unnecessary, resulting in a ~£80 RRP for something that would probably be better served as a lighter product for half that price.

Does that count as overproduced? Or is it just overbundled?
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Chris
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moocifer wrote:
1: Yes.
2: Scythe.

No, Scythe isn't over produced at all. It's over designed. And over hyped.

I think it has a strange variety in the amount of production within it, a dull looking red wooden arch as a "monument" vs a multicolour painted, shaded piece of resin (?) as "wood", but even the highest level I think nothing in particular is too much, which surely is the criteria for "overproduction".

This fucking nonsense however...



Bloody ridiculous.

A game is overproduced if it's physical form is notably disconnected from the gameplay experience it provides. There's plenty of slack between the rules and components but as I think Ben said earlier in the show, that game is just a cut down version of Chaos in the Old World, and that to me would be a let down from the OOH SHINY things in the box. Some muppets just think it makes the game even better somehow. Which is fine for them I suppose, but I think it's still a fact that it's overproduced.
 
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Bryan Gerding
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I think I have to revert to my normal choice on this and pick Dogs of War. I think its overproduction is the main reason it doesn't get the hype and will probably never see expansions (because adding new factions would mean you'd need new plastic busts).

There are a lot of games out there that are overproduced, but this is one of the only ones I know where I feel the overproduction is actually a problem.
 
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Kent
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I do not feel overproduction is a problem. Many gamers apparently feel the need to label a game as overproduced because the chrome doesn't have subjective appeal to them versus how well they enjoy the game.

Don't like the gameplay? It has lots of chrome? It's "overproduced". This type of selfish labeling to denigrate a game that is not enjoyed (or simply unobtainable due to price) deserves no respect, IMO.

Aesthetics can play a factor too. Some gamers get distracted by chrome, and tend to prefer bland unattractive production of components, in comparison to the overall game market. (I'm looking at you 18xx gamers). This may actually detract from accessibility to the general gamer population and qualifies as "underproduction" IMO.

Some countries have a higher cultural standard of quality than others. Take Japan for example where a higher level of artistic aesthetic permeates many aspects of production, from products to housing to art. The standards acceptable in other countries, such as for materials or structural quality, even for disposable packaging, could be considered horrifyingly garish and unacceptable to most.

So, overproduction would appear to be a completely subjective labeling, subject to the whims of accepted cultural and personal norms. Not a useful term without assessing it against a metric, such as cost per play, durability of components, ease of handling, usability of interface, etc.

In other words, don't insult something with a derogatory label, unless you also can explain why using less subjective criteria. Even then, be prepared to accept feedback from others that their value system is completely different, and just as valid, as your own.
 
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Isaac Shalev
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I think overproduction is mostly a plus for two opposite ends of the spectrum: folks who may only play the game once, and folks who will play the game tens or hundreds of times.

If you buy games and play only once, you're playing for a maximal experience, and you're not that price-sensitive. You likely have a pile of games still in shrink that you haven't played. Spending some more money for nicer bits and a richer game experience makes sense. You might also be a collector, and so you'll want the nicest and most complete version.

Similarly, if you play a game a ton, you'll get good value out of upgraded components, with the cost amortized over many sessions.

If you are somewhere in the middle, overproduction might bite into your budget, or give you a pile of expansions you'll never actually play with, etc.
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barry Doublet
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You may all say Scythe, but there is a deep game inside that justifys having lots of components and super duper asthetics.
But the worst culprietes are the games that are just small ideas that have been transformed into big box, overlavish, art gallery games. Two of them off the top of my head are Oceanos and Pingo Pingo.

Oceanos is a small card drafting game that has these large cardboard submarines that can be upgraded three times. So you have a big ( and I mean big) pile if tiles for each player. And the game is aimed for young familys. But even you youngest would have trouble getting the box off the shelf because of the weight!

Pingo Pingo is a speed game with cards. It will have you running around the table and slamming you hand on the stack on the table. And thats it! But it comes with a CD soundtrack, which is kind of essentual. But also a dart gun. A very nice dart gun. Wait a sec, that doesn't sound so bad.

I guess my point is, for me, an overproduced game is a game with a small idea but has bucket loads of unnessisary components and have been made lager in form (a bigger box) than the idea. And yes, I thought about Abyss, Colt Express and Dr Eureka, but you can justify the presents of the components.

(sorry, couldn't be fuked to spellcheck)
 
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Paul Grogan
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Scythe is gorgeous. I would not say the collectors edition is overproduced, it just looks amazing, and for those who want to pay for it, that's great. I've played once with the full extra bits and it was nice.

In the days of bling and KS stretch goals and add-ons, there is less of "accidental" overproduction, but there was games many years ago which definitely were overproduced. The original Planet Steam for example. Massive box, massive bits, totally uneccessary, very expensive game and it hurt sales.
 
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HeirToPendragon wrote:
I think I have to revert to my normal choice on this and pick Dogs of War. I think its overproduction is the main reason it doesn't get the hype and will probably never see expansions
I played this once and was very disappointed. Some of the extra bling was just pointless, and in one case, actually hindered gameplay.
Plus, the game wasn't great too.
 
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Brie
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Where I actually run into problems are games that just slightly overproduced, haven't gone all the way overboard.

Generally where this results in trouble for me is with minis, but minis that are hard to tell apart at a glance. I backed Gloomhaven at the standee level, to try to alleviate that issue, for Wizard's Academy, I've started using the tokens instead of minis for the characters (though Wizard's Academy minis are better than many for telling them apart due to the size differences between the characters). I was thrilled that the minis for Scythe had colored bases.

One game that I might consider over produced is Caverna. I found the 6th and 7th player stuff included to be a bit overboard, given those player counts are far less than ideal. This caused a much higher cost and box weight than ideal, however I did end up buying it.

 
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Anthony Boydell
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Ooh, I just remembered a game that typifies 'over produced' for me:

Queen's outrageous implementation of SNCF: Paris Connection

Huge box, lots of wooden trains, massive board. It could've been spunkfountaining expansion boards annually (like what Power Grid does) but they overdid the physicality.
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Chris
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tonyboydell wrote:
Ooh, I just remembered a game that typifies 'over produced' for me:

Queen's outrageous implementation of SNCF: Paris Connection

Huge box, lots of wooden trains, massive board. It could've been spunkfountaining expansion boards annually (like what Power Grid does) but they overdid the physicality.

Generally seems to be Queen by default with all their Big Box bullshit. They'll overproduce everything, pushing a huge box out the door for anything that's ever had an expansion. Shame they make the Winsome games look so bland and big compared to what they could be published properly add.
 
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Paul Grogan
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I have the Lancaster Big Box. Great game, definitely not overproduced. Everything is about right.
 
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Yes and no.

Clearly there is a market for it so why not?

In the old days most games had normal production values and after it became popular deluxe versions came out later or add on bits, etc. and you only HAD to upgrade if you really liked the game.

Now they seem to be higher production value, and therefore cost - so there is no entry level version of the game. Entry level cost may sell a few more - but may not get it more exposure. It may not sell at all because the splash of cool bits it what is attractive? After hearing the mixed Scythe reviews would it have done as well without the art and minis? Would CMON exist without fancy minis? it'd just be ON?

I'm happy either way. It isn't critical but I'm definitely attracted to the shiny.
 
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Mathieu Martin
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My favorite game Kings of Air and Steam is a prime example of this. It was made during the early days of Kickstarter when I think more publishers were worried about "Can we add this in" than "Should we add this in". The one complaint I ever get when teaching this game - and it inevitably happens every time - is why are the airships so big?



Since multiple ships can occupy a hex at the same time, things can inevitably get a little crowded.
 
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Zorch wrote:

Since multiple ships can occupy a hex at the same time, things can inevitably get a little crowded.

True - and I seem to recall the goods don't fit on the base very well?
 
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Nick Mariner
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So, I've been thinking about components, and two Cool Mini or Not games come to mind: The Grizzled and Blood Rage. The Grizzled is a box with some cards in it. There are tokens, too, but they're also just a small part of a card game. And that was my FAVORITE game of last year. Then I just played Blood Rage for the first time this weekend and was...luke warm on it. We spent a good portion of the game complaining because we couldn't tell the difference in minis (which is important because they have either 1, 2, or 3 battle power), and I didn't feel like the game did anything that I couldn't get out of Scythe or Kemet. If it hit the table again, I'd play it, but I wouldn't be the one requesting it.

I don't know if this is an argument that Blood Rage is overproduced. Maybe instead I mean to say that elaborate production forgives middle-of-the-road gameplay when gamers talk about a game. People went nuts for Blood Rage when it hit the market and the whole time I was playing, I thought "okay, but is this it???"
 
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My favorite new game is Terraforming Mars. 9 plays since Gen Con (that's huge in my book). The number one thing most folks say is they think the game is ugly. I've managed to see past that and enjoy the game.
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Nick Mariner
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Having said that, one of the criticisms of Terra Mystica I hear is that the wooden bits are pretty lack-luster. But there is more game in that box than almost anything else on my shelf, and I find that to be a bizarre criticism. I guess what I mean to say is that if I'm paying a high dollar amount for a game, I better get and want to play it quite a lot. If it's unimpressive, then the amount of production that drove up the price is going to seriously put me off of it.
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TheGoodMariner wrote:
I don't know if this is an argument that Blood Rage is overproduced. Maybe instead I mean to say that elaborate production forgives middle-of-the-road gameplay when gamers talk about a game. People went nuts for Blood Rage when it hit the market and the whole time I was playing, I thought "okay, but is this it???"

I don't think that's true even of CMON games. They've released some very average stuff, like B-Sieged, that got the reception it deserved. My experience is that the production of Blood Rage hooks people in, but the game has them coming back for more.
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