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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Rules

Subject: Proposed Rules Outline rss

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Patrick Leder
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Based on feedback we wanted to move some of the rules around a bit and expand of the sections. I was wondering if I could get some feedback from folks about the alternate layout.

Current Layout

Page 1 - Cover
Page 2 - 3 Setup
Page 4-5 Knight
Page 6-7 Goblins
Page 8-9 Dragon
Page 10-11 Cave
Page 12-13 Thief
Page 14 Terrain Variant
Page 15-16 Role Variants
Page 17 Difficulty Variants
Page 18-19 Sample Turn
Page 20 Cover

Proposed New Layout
Page 1 - Cover
Page 2-3 Story text plus expanded components
Page 4-5 Getting started, universal rules, glossary, etc.
Page 6-7 Knight
Page 8-9 Goblins
Page 10-11 Dragon
Page 12-13 Cave
Page 14-15 Thief
Page 16-17 Role Variants
Page 18-19 Terrain Variants and Difficulty variants
Page 20-21 Sample Turn
Page 22-23 Specific examples (sliding tiles together, using cave-in, pushing with bats/slap)
Page 24 Cover

Is it okay to explain how open edges always get new tiles before explaining the Knight?
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Derek Davis
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I think it would be good to give any "universal rules" right after set-up.
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Dylan Thurston
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GreenM wrote:
Is it okay to explain how open edges always get new tiles before explaining the Knight?
Yes. Someplace early on there should be enough brief overview to explain that tiles can be revealed in a number of ways, including by the Knight exploring the dark cavern.

I might suggest including somewhere on pages 2-5 one paragraph about each character, the bare minimum that players need to know about the other characters before the first game. ("The Cave uses dark Omens to craft the cave for its purposes...")
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Peter Rabinowitz
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I would put Sample Turn before Role Variants as it's part of the base rules. All variant stuff should come last.
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Brian Baker
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Also consider creating a "reference guide" for the components, either in the expanded component section or as a separate sheet. You might want to list a component and then describe whether each character cares about it. Example:

Event tiles -- Triggers an event card when revealed by the Knight. Place an event token when revealed by another player and Knight is in the game.

Treasure -- Picked up by Knight to acquire Treasure card. Plundered by Goblins to increase rage... (etc.)

This sort of cross reference should make it easier for new players to understand how they will interact with other players.
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Professor of Pain
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You seem to be dropping "Setup" for some reason. That strikes me as odd and a bad idea.
 
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Patrick Leder
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I think that will be on 4 and 5.
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Todd Fast
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+1 on sample turns for each role. I'd also suggest some guidance on your first game.
 
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neko flying
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An FAQ and some clarifications about specific cards and powers would also be needed, I think.
 
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neko flying
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And also some brief strategy tips for each role, as it can be daunting on the first play.
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Peter Rabinowitz
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And a free kitten.
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Thomas -
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My copy came without a kitten. I checked with the mail man who claims not to have seen it. Is my copy incomplete?
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Patrick Leder
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ThomasDN wrote:
My copy came without a kitten. I checked with the mail man who claims not to have seen it. Is my copy incomplete?


He said that because he probably took your kitten home. You demand your kitten next time you see him.
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David Fenton
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Are you planning any sort of rules changes for the next version (outside the clarifications mentioned in the forums)?
 
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Patrick Leder
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Depends on what you consider a change:
We will make the language stronger (exist) that the Knight has to use Encounters to EXPLORE (as opposed to Reveal) dark tiles when she moves into them.

That is how the game is intended to play. I don't consider it a change though.

I might clarify some of the cards, like right now the Goblins can Attack through a wall with the card that lets them attack from an Ambush space.

Otherwise now it will be there to illustrate and better explain things.
 
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David Fenton
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GreenM wrote:
I might clarify some of the cards, like right now the Goblins can Attack through a wall with the card that lets them attack from an Ambush space.

Will this be allowed or not in the updated rules? (reason I ask is because if the intent is not to allow it, I won't teach it that way).
 
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Patrick Leder
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Balance wise it doesn't seem to be an issue but narratively its weird right? I'm in the camp not to change it if no one is complaining about 40% Goblin wins.

I feel like the card really makes the Goblins work since it forces different choices for the Knight when she is low on Health (and aware of the card).
 
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David Fenton
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GreenM wrote:
Balance wise it doesn't seem to be an issue but narratively its weird right? I'm in the camp not to change it if no one is complaining about 40% Goblin wins.

I feel like the card really makes the Goblins work since it forces different choices for the Knight when she is low on Health (and aware of the card).

Narrative-wise, I don't see that much of a problem. Goblins can normally travel freely through dark tiles (which may or may not become walls). For example, if 2 adjacent tiles are Dark and surrounded by Lit tiles, Goblins move freely between them. Flip over one tile and place a wall between them...suddenly Goblins have to go long way around (and lose more than 1 population to reach it). Maybe this is the magic property of the caverns (that they're formless unless Lit), but the fact that the Knight can manage to find ways through walls (Ancient Map) and Dragon can fly over them (Wing) gives reason that the Goblins could get through them as well in specific circumstances (maybe they're ambushing from a hole in the ceiling and can hence hop down over the walls, but it takes a Secrets card to be smart enough to do that, and only from an "advantageous position", i.e. Ambush tile).

The balance is more important though. What do you mean by 40% Goblin wins? Is that balanced or not? Your first statement seems to be that it is, but I'm not sure what the 40% means. Is that in Goblin v Knight (so the Goblins are behind even with the card), or in 4/5-player games (so the Goblin is ahead)?
 
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Patrick Leder
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I mean winning 40% of 4 or 5 player games. But I'm not hearing that anyway.
 
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There's a shape called "The Golden Rectangle". Have you heard of it?
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It refers to a rectangle that's approximately contstructed in the ratio of 9 to 16. The golden rectangle has several characteristics. Let's say I create a square within this shape. Then, this smaller rectangle that I just created will also be a
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golden rectangle. I make another square within that and the leftover is another golden rectangle. And I make a few more, and when I connect all the central points of these shapes it creates a spiral that continues forever. This is the "Golden Spin".
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That is not insignificant and if no one is complaining it's because they've only heard that for the first time like I just did.
 
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Patrick Leder
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I'm not following.

What I'm saying is narrative-wise the card is weird, but I'm not going to change something that could impact balance.
 
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Patrick Leder
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I really feel like words are being put in my mouth here and I want to be perfectly clear since I am having a hard time with rumors.

I consider the game to be well balanced. It was tricky to balance and I don't think I am free from criticism here but I am happy with the balance and I haven't heard anything major to make me think otherwise.

Although I find the narrative of the Goblins attacking through walls weird, I am not changing it since that would require testing that I think would be better spent on the expansion or the second Vast title (or printing or fund raising).
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Graham Gass
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I think people are interpreting you saying "I'm in the camp not to change it if no one is complaining about 40% Goblin wins." as "Goblins are winning 40% of games but nobody is complaining so I don't need to change it." When really I think you're saying that "nobody is complaining about excessive goblin wins, so they probably don't have a 40% win rate and nothing needs to be changed".
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David Fenton
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GreenM wrote:
I really feel like words are being put in my mouth here and I want to be perfectly clear since I am having a hard time with rumors.

Ok. I don't think that we were trying to put words in your mouth. We were just confused about your statement:
GreenM wrote:
I'm in the camp not to change it if no one is complaining about 40% Goblin wins.


We weren't sure if that meant A) that you know (based on play-testing) that Goblins win 40% of the time with that rule, but people aren't complaining about it, or B) that 40% was a made-up number and you mean to say that while you haven't play-tested extensively with it, you've seen no evidence that the balance has changed (i.e. the rule may make it easier for Goblins to attack from off-board, but the Knight can simply be careful not to end their turn near Ambush tiles and it all evens out).

Since we don't know whether you play-tested with that rule interpretation or not, mentioning a specific number (40%) perked our ears up a bit.

Based on your response and surprise, I'm guessing you intended version B from above, and that there's no expected imbalance due to that rule.

I fully trust (and believe) that you spent a lot of time balancing the game, and just want to make sure I'm playing the way that you balanced it for (or at least in a way you feel is still just as balanced).

[Edit: Graham beat me to it]
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Quote:
Balance wise it doesn't seem to be an issue but narratively its weird right? I'm in the camp not to change it if no one is complaining about 40% Goblin wins.

It seems to me he's saying...

Narratively it's weird for Goblins to be able to attack through walls using Ambush. If being able to attack through walls like this made Goblins too powerful, he'd be eager to change the card since it would fix both a narrative issue and a balance issue in one stroke. But since it doesn't seem to be creating a balance issue, he's willing to live with the narrative issue.
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