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Subject: [SPOILER] Rule 16 rss

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David desJardins
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
(1) If you are raiding another player's ships, and you are At War with that player, do the enmity tokens in the At War section increase your dice pool for the raid? Or is it only when you specifically raid the province of that player?

We played that the tokens do apply, and that you can/must return those tokens when you successfully raid ships. Otherwise, both players can have At War With tokens from each other, which doesn't seem like the intent.

(2) If you raid another player's ships, and the effects you apply would cost more enmity tokens than you have available, does that mean you can't apply that much damage or plunder, and you have to ignore some of your successes? Or does it count as an "unplanned course of events" if you manage to inflict more damage than you have enmity tokens?

I think that you are limited in what you can apply.
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Tim Stack
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
(1) If you are raiding another player's ships, and you are At War with that player, do the enmity tokens in the At War section increase your dice pool for the raid? Or is it only when you specifically raid the province of that player?

We played that the tokens do apply, and that you can/must return those tokens when you successfully raid ships. Otherwise, both players can have At War With tokens from each other, which doesn't seem like the intent.

(2) If you raid another player's ships, and the effects you apply would cost more enmity tokens than you have available, does that mean you can't apply that much damage or plunder, and you have to ignore some of your successes? Or does it count as an "unplanned course of events" if you manage to inflict more damage than you have enmity tokens?

I think that you are limited in what you can apply.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
1) That is how I would handle it.

2) You can always do less damage/plunder then the number of successes rolled and the damage/plunder can not be greater then the available enmity to hand out.
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Joe fakelastnameson
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These are both great questions, and the rules don't seem to address them. Some developer clarity here would be great.

my spoiler answers below:


Spoiler (click to reveal)

1. We had the exact opposite reading. The rules make no mention of using at war enmity in a ship raid. If your ship gets raided you'll have a nice bonus to raiding their province later. The mutual "at war with" thing we assumed was intentional with the rule expansion after the first game, but now that you point it out it kinda doesn't make sense.


2. I agree with your reading. I think applying damage or claiming plunder is optional in a ship raid. If you only have 1 enmity token and 3 successes, you can give one damage or take one good. Your other 2 successes are wasted.

 
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David desJardins
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Another question about Rule 16:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
If I raid another player's ships (or province), and I get at least one success, but I don't use it to inflict any damage or take any goods, then it seems that I don't pay any enmity tokens but I still do get 1 glory for the "successful" raid. Is that right? One glory is not a huge amount, but it still seems a bit of a loophole.
 
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Joe fakelastnameson
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I believe that is correct. Actually I think that is addressed elsewhere here in the forums in reference to province raiding.



from JR Honeycutt:
In that case you would be successful, so you would get the glory. No plunder means you don't place enmity. Yes, you're allowed to decide not to place any tokens and take no plunder (you've basically wasted a turn).

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23564766#23564766
 
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TJ
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I got confirmation from Rob via Twitter. The defense/offense bonuses you get from "At War" enmity tokens also apply to raiding ships, regardless of where the ship raid is taking place. Also got confirmation that enmity in the region you are raiding the ship still applies.
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David desJardins
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Slyght wrote:
Also got confirmation that enmity in the region you are raiding the ship still applies.


Can you post exactly what he wrote? This doesn't really make sense (why would island enmity affect a raid against ships that just happen to be located at that island?), and it's also not in the rules that I've read. Is it possible you misunderstood his answer or he misunderstood your question? What if I'm raiding Fred's ships but they are located at Bob's harbor? Would I still use the enmity I've accrued in Bob's province??
 
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Tim Stack
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Page 18 says that when raiding you lose dice from your dice pool for each of your enmity tokens and stickers the island has when raiding. It does not say not to do that during ship battles and I think Rob was confirming that. Thematically I think it represents natives/locals harassing and/or sabotaging your efforts when you try to raid a ship near their shores.
 
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TJ
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Slyght wrote:
Also got confirmation that enmity in the region you are raiding the ship still applies.


Can you post exactly what he wrote? This doesn't really make sense (why would island enmity affect a raid against ships that just happen to be located at that island?), and it's also not in the rules that I've read. Is it possible you misunderstood his answer or he misunderstood your question? What if I'm raiding Fred's ships but they are located at Bob's harbor? Would I still use the enmity I've accrued in Bob's province??


I asked Rob via Twitter "If you raid a player's ship in that player's province, do you also account for enmity you have in that region?" and he replied "Yes".

That said, I'm also a little skeptical about this ruling as well, and my group didn't end up using this ruling. Regions are technically areas of land in the game per the glossary (the hexes are "spaces"), so I would also agree that regional enmity doesn't extend to the ship combat that takes place on water.
 
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Tim Stack
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I view regions as spaces with land within them. There is no way you distinguish between being in a space and at land versus being in a space and not at land. Ships can swap goods in the hold at a region with an atoll. As long as you are in that space you are in that region.
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
I view regions as spaces with land within them. There is no way you distinguish between being in a space and at land versus being in a space and not at land. Ships can swap goods in the hold at a region with an atoll. As long as you are in that space you are in that region.


I see no question about that. How is it germane? The question is whether the same penalties and modifiers that apply when raiding an island also apply when raiding ships that are located at that island. They are stated as modifiers for raiding the island, not for all raids that happen to be colocated at that island. The modifiers for raiding ships are different and are listed in the rules for raiding ships.
 
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Becq Starforged
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Unless there is specific text saying otherwise in an unlocked rule (it sounds as though there isn't), I would say that the existing rules indicate that any raids in a space including a garrison would lose dice due to the garrison and any relevant enmity.

If you need rationalization, imagine that in the real-life age of sail, an English privateer started an attack run against a Dutch merchant near a French port. The merchant could run for the port, and it seems unlikely that the French garrison would sit by while a privateer opened fire in their port -- and if the French happened to have been attacked by the English recently, they would be all the more likely to engage.

I reserve the right to modify these views once I've actually unlocked and read the material in question, of course.
 
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Tim Stack
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The ship's sails/raid would replace the island garrison, but buildings present with garrisons would still apply.
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
The ship's sails/raid would replace the island garrison, but buildings present with garrisons would still apply.


I doubt it. The Gun Tower says "+1 garrison against raids in this region." You could read that as effective against raids of ships, or even raids against ships of other players, even against raids *by* the owner of the Gun Tower *against* ships of other players. But that's not how I would read it; I would read it as applying only to raids against the region itself.
 
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David desJardins
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Becq wrote:
Unless there is specific text saying otherwise in an unlocked rule (it sounds as though there isn't), I would say that the existing rules indicate that any raids in a space including a garrison would lose dice due to the garrison and any relevant enmity.


The unlocked rules do specifically say otherwise.

I think we have enough trouble agreeing on what the rules mean among those who have actually read them. I admire your enthusiasm, but speculating on what the rules mean without reading them just doesn't seem all that helpful.
 
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Tim Stack
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Becq wrote:
Unless there is specific text saying otherwise in an unlocked rule (it sounds as though there isn't), I would say that the existing rules indicate that any raids in a space including a garrison would lose dice due to the garrison and any relevant enmity.


The unlocked rules do specifically say otherwise.



Where exactly do the rules specifically say that a local garrison or enmity does not apply?

Raiding a ship rules include all the regular raiding rules and then adds it's changes or exceptions.

Here are the raiding rules:
From the Rulebook wrote:

A raid endeavor works as follows:
1. Determine your raid dice
2. Remove some dice (unlike exploring, see below)
3. Roll and determine damage based on the defense of the site
4. Gather plunder based on your rolled successes (unlike exploring)
5. Give enmity (usually on the raided site)
Unlike exploring, when raiding, you will lose dice from your pool before you roll. Remove dice for:
- The garrison value of the region/island (printed on the board).
- Structures that have a garrison symbol in that region (like Gun Towers).
- Each of your enmity tokens and stickers the island has. If raiding a province, remove a die for each enmity of yours they have, anywhere in their region.
- Defending ships in the region. Each ship is considered a support ship and usually removes one die unless it has an upgrade or ability that allows it to remove more.


Here are the same raid rules with the changes added by Rule 16 & 17.

From the Extrapolated Interpretation wrote:

A raid endeavor works as follows:
1. Determine your raid dice
2. Remove some dice (see below)
3. Roll and determine damage based on the defense (defending ship's hold).
4. Gather 1 plunder or inflict 1 damage for each success rolled[/i]
5. Place one enmity token in the defending player's At War With section for each plunder taken and each damage inflicted (or only one token if the raid was within a region you control)
Unlike exploring, when raiding, you will lose dice from your pool
before you roll. Remove dice for:

- The garrison value of the defending flagship. This is the ship's Raid or Sail value (defender's choice).
- Structures that have a garrison symbol in that region (like Gun Towers). (I do assume you don't count your own tower garrison's against you, little leap of common sense there)
- Each of your enmity tokens and stickers the island has.
- Defending ships in the region. Each ship is considered a support ship and usually removes one die unless it has an upgrade or ability that allows it to remove more.
- Add 1 die if the attacker controls the space and remove one die if the defender controls the space. (You control your province space as well as an island space with one of your colonies present)
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Where exactly do the rules specifically say that a local garrison or enmity does not apply?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rule 16: .... Its sail or raid is the garrison....
 
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Tim Stack
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It says it is THE garrison, not A garrison. Raiding rules refers to THE garrison of a location as well as A garrison added by local structures such as gun towers.

Sails/Raid should be used to replace the base garrison, but additional garrison such as gun towers can be used as well if the raid takes place where the defender has gun towers to protect his ships.
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Sails/Raid should be used to replace the base garrison, but additional garrison such as gun towers can be used as well if the raid takes place where the defender has gun towers to protect his ships.


Maybe. But I won't interpret it that way unless told to by someone who knows.
 
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Tim Stack
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I should raid your province. It's nice to know in advance that your gun towers won't defend the ships in your harbor.
 
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Matt S
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
So Tim it seems we need clarification from Rob or JR on if ship raiding is mainly following its stickered rule text or if it is an full extension of the raid rules.

Lets list the locations so we can better talk about each. Then we can talk about what is added/subtracted at each.
Raid another ship in:
1) Open waters.
2) Your home harbor.
3) Their home harbor.
4) An island.
5) An island with your colony
6) An island with their colony

List of modifiers:
(keeping in mind that some of these have both the Raider value and the player being raided value)
A ) At War enmity
B ) Control of location
C ) Enmity to the other player
E ) Ships
G ) Structures

So now we have to determine which A - G apply at each 1 - 6.

This has already been started in the other Rule 16 and 19 thread.

I am going to do the easy one first.

1) A, C, and E
 
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Joe fakelastnameson
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By "C) Enmity to the other player"

do you mean permanent enmity at the player's province?

If not how is C) different from A) ?


And as a shout out to David, this Thread was first. I created that other one to expand the question to colonies, and give more specific example scenarios, but that's happened here anyway.
 
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Matt S
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The main difference between A and C is that when talking about A there is a specific area on the player board where those tokens are vs C that this is both the enmity stickers on the board plus any that are on the player board that have not been moved to the "At War" space.
 
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Joe fakelastnameson
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If that's the case then the prevailing reading seems to be that C wouldn't apply in case 1. Though, I think it makes sense that it should.

Seems even the easy one maybe isn't so easy. haha.

(edited for a typo)
 
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TJ
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From Rob via Twitter "in general, enmity protects you no matter where it is."
 
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