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Subject: Speculation - Do you think we'll be fighting Ancient Ones in this game? rss

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J. Chris Miller
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So I think it would be thematic to have the boss at the end of a mythos cycle to be an Ancient One. Maybe LOTR players can comment on this, did they have any "major boss battles"?

Okay really I just wanted another excuse to talk about this game. blush

I can't wait!!!
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Nigel McNaughton
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There are absolutely major battles in LOTR, as in both armies on battlefields and big beasties. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if certain campaigns deal with particular ancient ones.
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Akaan Qualrus
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I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.
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David Boeren
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Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


We know you can evade monsters and they don't follow you unless they have the right keyword. There will likely be cards that let you banish or confine monsters as well. It's probably possible a fair percentage of the time - although it might be more difficult.

My own take is that if the mechanics dictate that guns are effective against something, then it's thematic to attack it with guns. If they didn't want you to be doing that, they'd have made it harder to hurt that way. Something like an Ancient One will probably be invulnerable to normal wounding and require players to complete the right ritual or something to deal with them (not killing them, but perhaps just closing the gate or whatever).
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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"Boss battles" against Ancient Ones are the paradigm of several FFG games in the "Arkham Horror" line, so this wouldn't be a surprising feature.

However, I hope it won't be the standard form of a campaign. I'd prefer to see Ancient Ones as more remote and invulnerable, exercising influence in detectable ways, but not making themselves available for "fighting" as such.
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Marco Donghi
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FFG's AH files have always been on the pulpy side, letting you battle the ancient ones. I hope this is the one game where we can do away with such an unrealistic(!) thing and actually have more down-to-earth objectives, like investigating things, disrupting rituals and summonings, defeating cults in a way that would make good ol' Legrasse proud, and generally running away with your life and sanity intact and calling it a day.
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Daily Grind
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Agree, I'd like to still have the 'theme' of a GOO seep through, but without the battle itself. So as you say 'disrupting the ritual' which was almost completed such that you might still feel the effects of a particular GOO's influence without it restoring to an actual battle.

"Gee, why is it so cold in this creepy abandoned speak-easy? Oh, look, cultists summoning Ithaqua."
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S. R.
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Vittek wrote:
unrealistic(!)

Forgive me if I laugh a little.
...I probably won't have to explain why, now, do I?


Apart from that, I fully support the notion that GOOs shouldn't be "fightable" (nice, non-existant word). I usually dislike the pulpy side of Mythos stories/adventures quite a bit, adhering to a more "purist" approach (regarding my RPG ventures of Mythos ). So I would very much appreciate it if weapons would do the investigators no good against the GOOs. As mentioned, disrupting the Ritual, closing the gate, killing the conduits or simply avoiding or fleeing the area of summoning (if that be enough) should be the plan of action in such an event.

I also would like to see things like "aftermath" effects from Ancient Ones not effectively thwarted. Like lingering effects, represented in changes to the draw bag in subsequent scenarios, or cards you have to shuffle into the decks of subsequent scenarios, etc. Changes to the Investigator decks are also not bad, but are just the basics of what you can do, here...
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mathew rynich
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Short answer is I think it's likely considering what's come before.

The original AH boardgame would force you to confront an Old One if you couldn't solve the game via closing the gates. Closing the gates was the preferred way to beat the game. The Old Ones were super tough to beat and some seemed almost impossible. Their major contributions to the game were some background effects more than the boss battle that might come up at the end.

In Chaosium's CoC RPG at the end of their larger campaign books a confrontation with an Old One can be possible. Usually the people confronting the Old Ones don't survive the encounter or go insane (though of course that all depends on how the keeper wants to handle it).

In LOTR LCG there were some hard though not unbeatable boss monsters. Nazgul, the balrog, war mumaks ... all appear. Not exactly apples to apples though. I'd suspect an Old One in AH LCG would need to be mitigated through some other means or evaded long enough for you to escape or complete your objective. I also suspect if they were going to appear it would be at the conclusion of a campaign like in previous games.

Add: To add more detail in AH the boardgame there was usually very few ways to actually deal with GOOs, which is what made them hard and they were usually sapping your sanity during the encounter so you didn't have much time to adapt. For example in the AH boardgame most GOOs were resistant to physical damage, which pretty much throws out the majority of your usual ways to deal damage. At the same time you spell casters, which might have a chance against a GOO also probably had their sanity already taxed from using their abilities which caused them to not last long in the battle. So direct confrontation with the GOO was not the desirable outcome for the end of the campaign.
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phillosmaster wrote:

In Chaosium's CoC RPG at the end of their larger campaign books a confrontation with an Old One can be possible. Usually the people confronting the Old Ones don't survive the encounter or go insane (though of course that all depends on how the keeper wants to handle it).


Providing the GM didn't pulp it up, while confrontations with GOOs (o rather, encounters with them) sometimes are a distinct possibility, there is NO possibility at all to win a fight against a GOO in this game.
To win a battle, yes - which means thwarting a GOOs (or its followers') plans and hindering or postponing its manifestation. To win the war against one GOO was always impossible. NO GOO is defeatable (i.e. killable) by any means available to humans in the RPG.

Oh, and please, noone give me that stuff about fishing vessels being able to "pop" dear old Cthulhu like a balloon. Close reading of source material provides a different outcome...
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Brent Brown
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Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


If I never get to ram a boat into Cthulhu's head... They have failed...
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Jim Parkin
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Carthoris wrote:
"Boss battles" against Ancient Ones are the paradigm of several FFG games in the "Arkham Horror" line, so this wouldn't be a surprising feature.

However, I hope it won't be the standard form of a campaign. I'd prefer to see Ancient Ones as more remote and invulnerable, exercising influence in detectable ways, but not making themselves available for "fighting" as such.

This.
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Jim Parkin
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elitusprime wrote:
Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


If I never get to ram a boat into Cthulhu's head... They have failed...

...but also this.
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Matt E.

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Annowme wrote:
elitusprime wrote:
Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


If I never get to ram a boat into Cthulhu's head... They have failed...

...but also this.


LOL, there is room for both styles. However I get the big epic fights out of Eldritch Horror. I like Mansions of Madness for it being so small scale and intimate in comparision.

Still, I'd be happy with a little Rats in the Walls smaller scale stuff, but the occasional Dunnich Horror or Mountains of Madness higher stakes would be cool as well.
 
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Akaan Qualrus
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elitusprime wrote:
Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


If I never get to ram a boat into Cthulhu's head... They have failed...


Oh right ! I think I erased this passage from my memory. But he recombined and then went to bed and ... oh shit ... got trapped again underwater.
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Nigel McNaughton
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I'm not saying Pack 6 "Over the Top" will literally be an arm wrestling contest with Cthulhu, more that I wouldn't be at all surprised if campaigns get to points were we have to defeat something Big & Nasty or an Elder God wins.
 
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Tyler
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BathTubNZ wrote:
I'm not saying Pack 6 "Over the Top" will literally be an arm wrestling contest with Cthulhu, more that I wouldn't be at all surprised if campaigns get to points were we have to defeat something Big & Nasty or an Elder God wins.


I think one of the advantages of scenario-based play is going either way. A climactic confrontation is hard coded into games like Arkham and Eldritch Horror. With the Arkham LCG, the scenario structure we've seen would allow for epic battles against a physically present Ancient One as much rooting out a nest of ghouls or fighting off an incorporeal presence like the Colour Out of Space.
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Tyler Howsare
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Dumon wrote:


Oh, and please, noone give me that stuff about fishing vessels being able to "pop" dear old Cthulhu like a balloon. Close reading of source material provides a different outcome...


I don't follow. Are you saying this didn't happen?

"The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler would not put on paper."

It didn't kill Cthulhu, but it did defeat him in the sense of buying time for the ship to escape, while Cthulhu was presumably trapped when the city sunk again.
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@Tyler:
Well, I would not call it "defeat", I'd say it "delayed" him long enough for the ship to escape. And it IS odd (and somewhat hilarious) that the ramming of the ship resulted in this ... reaction ...
Other than that, it is true, the story tells it like this. I'm not disputing that. In fact, I should have worded my pet peevey comment differently. I am simply annoyed by people claiming stubbornly that a fishing vessel could actually "defeat" (as in "kill" or "banish" or whatnot) Cthulhu. Had this discussion on FB recently, and it took quite a while, as well as quoting the source material AND explaining how to read it, to finally make them stop. And it was not the first time I heard or read this claim uttered with conviction, by far...
 
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Marco Donghi
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spotH3D wrote:

Still, I'd be happy with a little Rats in the Walls smaller scale stuff, but the occasional Dunnich Horror or Mountains of Madness higher stakes would be cool as well.


Higher stakes doesn't mean having to fight an Ancient One. Case in point, if you remember Mountains of Madness, that' a straight-up investigation story. The protagonists go bumping in an outlandish setting, learn what they can, and then flee with what remains of their sanity. So yes to higher stakes and outlandish settings, and I feel we'll have some even in the base game. No to having all scenarios/campaigns end with the Big Nasty.

EDIT: By the way, having each and every story centered on which Ancient One is awakening this time is a trope, a forma mentis, which we aquired by Arkham Horror itself. I believe you would be hard pressed in remembering exactly which original Lovecraft stories include the danger of an awakening Ancient One, aside from Call of Chtulhu and Dunwich Horror. I know the Mythos have gone a long way since Him, but if other authors decided to stick with the "Ancient One of the week" (and I don't think that's the case) it means they did a poor job.
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Robb Melenyk
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Akaan Qualrus wrote:
I hope not. I would prefer that the game don't stretch too far from Lovecraft's novels.

Actually I wonder if it is possible to win scenarios without fighting.


This is what I want to know as well. If you can craft a deck of simply avoiding fights and still succeeding in the... uh end goal.
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Tristan Hall
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It's sort of an inconvenient truth when discussing Lovecraft, that the ancient ones can in fact be defeated in battle (whether or not they come or "reform" back later). This is certainly what FFG are playing on when they include Final Battles with the GOOs in their games. So I don't mind if Final Battles exist in the game, but I think I'd prefer the gameplay aspects of exploration and investigation more.
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Well, "defeat" is a matter of definition. Reforming after no more than a minute I would not count as "defeat", rather as involuntary dematerialization, and time-delayed rematerialization afterwards...

And Cthulhu is the only GOO that Lovecraft describes as being dematerialized this way. There are very few stories in which a GOO or even an Outer God appear, and in those they are merely banished, or vanish on their own (like, I would argue, is the case with Cthulhu).
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Tristan Hall
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Dumon wrote:
Well, "defeat" is a matter of definition. Reforming after no more than a minute I would not count as "defeat", rather as involuntary dematerialization, and time-delayed rematerialization afterwards...

And Cthulhu is the only GOO that Lovecraft describes as being dematerialized this way. There are very few stories in which a GOO or even an Outer God appear, and in those they are merely banished, or vanish on their own (like, I would argue, is the case with Cthulhu).


You say "involuntary dematerialization, and time-delayed rematerialization afterwards, merely banished, or vanish", I say "defeat".
Potato, tomato.
That whole thing about him 'nebulously recombining' is actually significantly undermined because HPL then goes on to say that
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Cthulhu is effectively re-imprisoned under the sea again.

Lovecraft wrote:
Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places. He must have been trapped by the sinking whilst within his black abyss, or else the world would by now be screaming with fright and frenzy. Who knows the end? What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise. Loathsomeness waits and dreams in the deep, and decay spreads over the tottering cities of men. A time will come—but I must not and cannot think! Let me pray that, if I do not survive this manuscript, my executors may put caution before audacity and see that it meets no other eye.


There's no suggestion that Cthulhu is back up and fighting a minute later, quite the opposite, just that time isn't as relevant for him.


Since Cthulhu is the poster boy for the HPL Mythos in modern gaming I totally understand why Mythos themed games focus on battling. You could also cite the Feds’ gun battle/raid on Innsmouth and the fight against the Dunwich Horror as more evidence for humans fighting back against HPL’s monsters.

As I said, this isn’t to say that I wouldn’t mind or even prefer a more mystery/investigation themed horror game where the baddies aren’t merely a collage of hit points (it's why I’m designing one) but I think people sometimes mix up what they think Lovecraft intended with what he actually wrote.
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Gabriel Conroy
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I would much prefer if these games were about fighting the human servants and worshippers of these beings, infiltrating their cults and societies, unmasking their plots, with only the very occasional creature encountered. The non-stop parade of lovecraft-style monsters really weakens the effect for me and just makes it like a bad D&D adventure.
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