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Subject: Ladybug and gate blocking rss

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AFAIK, the Ladybug, just like the Beetle, should be blocked by a gate on top of the hive.

While reviewing a game using BoardSpace.net's offline viewer, I saw what seems to be an illegal move.

Before:


After:


Is this move indeed illegal?
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Sean Colombo
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Good catch, I think you're right on this. Did you reach out to Dave? he's very responsive.
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James C
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I'm certainly no expert, but...

The rules don't indicate that it can't move over a stack of two (or more) bugs though.
 
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Rafał Wątorski
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If it was a Beetle instead of a Ladybug, then it could move to wG2, because both Beetle and Grasshopper are exceptions from the "Freedom to Move" rule. Altough not stated in the Ladybug rules, I think it is also an exception to this rule, since it climbs up and down, just like the Beetle.

So the Ladybug went trough the Grasshoppers at wG2 and bG2... Yep, it seems that it's not a valid move.

Please check the following answers from a designer:
As to the Beetle, it may move one space in any direction across the top of the hive, as long as it is free to do so (freedom to move rule) what I'm saying is that if there are three beetles that are on top of the hive that are in positions that restrict the middle beetle from slipping though, then this beetle will first have to climb up onto one of the others, then on its next turn climb down into the space.
I hope I have not confused the matter.
rmingersoll wrote:
Does the Freedom to Move rule apply to the Ladybug as she moves across the hive?

Does she slide across the top of the hive like a Beetle moves? Or do she hop over everything the way a Hopper moves?

The Ladybug moves along the top of the Hive, step by step like a beetle.


Please also check the following diagram from this reply:



edit: did some research and corrected my answer
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Justin Case
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raphaell7 wrote:
If it was a Beetle instead of a Ladybug, then it could move to wG2, because both Beetle and Grasshopper are exceptions from the "Freedom to Move" rule. Altough not stated in the Ladybug rules, I think it is also an exception to this rule, since it climbs up and down, just like the Beetle.

Based mostly on the fact that one of the players seems to be champion Randy Ingersoll, I think this is likely to be the correct understanding. It's certainly an interesting position to be aware of while playing!

raphaell7 wrote:
edit: did some research and corrected my answer

Now I'm even more curious about this. I hope Randy sees the thread, it will be interesting to know his interpretation of the rule, or if it really was a simple mistake and oversight in play.

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Russ Williams
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SuperGLS wrote:
I'm certainly no expert, but...

The rules don't indicate that it can't move over a stack of two (or more) bugs though.

True, but that seems irrelevant. Can you explain what you're thinking? (Are you thinking it went onto bB2, then southeast twice? But the first southeast move onto an empty space is illegal since both of its first 2 steps must be on the hive.)

The ladybug's only way to get there in exactly 2 moves on top of the hive is via wG2 bG2. wG2 is only a single tile, and to get onto it, the ladybug would have to pass through the higher gateway formed by (the higher stacks) bB2 & wB2.
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Dave Dyer
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Which game is this?
 
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ddyer wrote:
Which game is this?


This is U!HV-cesc-ringersoll-2010-10-23-1527.
 
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Dave Dyer
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At the risk of straining the insect metaphor, Ladybugs have wings
and wouldn't be blocked in the same manner the beetle is. It's been
a while since I looked at this code, but I believe Boardspace lets
ladybugs move on top of the hive without restriction.

I don't have any correspondence in my archives on this subject, but if
some authoritative source (ie; John Yianni) indicates that Ladybugs
should be blocked as beetles are, I will switch the rules for future
games.
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ddyer wrote:
I don't have any correspondence in my archives on this subject, but if some authoritative source (ie; John Yianni) indicates that Ladybugs should be blocked as beetles are, I will switch the rules for future games.


This seems to be the case, see this reply:

Gen Four Two wrote:
The Ladybug moves along the top of the Hive, step by step like a beetle.
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Dave Dyer
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I checked the code, and Boardspace ladybug is blocked by gates, exactly
as the beetle is; but it is not blocked from going straight up (by 2) to the top of the gate. It has never been the case that beetles couldn't
ascend a 2-high stack.

In the diagram below, the ladybug steps up 2 onto wB2, down one to bA2, then down 1 more to base level. Note that the
move to \bG2 is not legal, as is blocked by the gate at bB2 and wB2.


In a certain sense, this is "gate" argument is a holdover from the
original pieces, where there were fewer stackable pieces and it seemed
reasonable to allow 2 beetles to block one beetle's movement.
 
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Russ Williams
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ddyer wrote:
I checked the code, and Boardspace ladybug is blocked by gates, exactly
as the beetle is;

Then how does it reach the position shown "after" in the original post? The gates seem to block the move which nonetheless occurred, unless some of us are brainfarting...?

Quote:
but it is not blocked from going straight up (by 2) to the top of the gate. It has never been the case that beetles couldn't
ascend a 2-high stack.

Cool, but I'm still not seeing how that's relevant in the OP's example. How does stepping up 2 levels help it reach the "after" position in the OP?
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James C
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russ wrote:
SuperGLS wrote:
I'm certainly no expert, but...

The rules don't indicate that it can't move over a stack of two (or more) bugs though.

True, but that seems irrelevant. Can you explain what you're thinking? (Are you thinking it went onto bB2, then southeast twice? But the first southeast move onto an empty space is illegal since both of its first 2 steps must be on the hive.)

The ladybug's only way to get there in exactly 2 moves on top of the hive is via wG2 bG2. wG2 is only a single tile, and to get onto it, the ladybug would have to pass through the higher gateway formed by (the higher stacks) bB2 & wB2.


Yes, you are right. When switching back and forth between pics I somehow had it in my mind that the ladybug was between bS2 and bG2, instead of where it actually is.
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Dave Dyer
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the move to /B2 is not permitted today. It's in the old game
as a matter of historical record. The change to the rules implementation
that installed "gate awareness" was made in March 2011
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