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Subject: Choosing the last three vision cards to find the culprit. rss

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Juan Carlos Burgos
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Is it right to pick the last three vision cards based only on one element of the culprit's grouped cards? For example, using cards that could point out the suspect, but not the weapon or the location.

The last time we played this game, the ghost used this technique. All cards pointed to the magician as the main suspect, which made it very easy for everyone to guess which group should be voted on. So, I was thinking if this could be taken as cheating, because the rules state that the ghosts should pick a vision for each card in the group.

Hope you can help me.

Thanks!
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Huank wrote:
Is it right to pick the last three vision cards based only on one element of the culprit's grouped cards? For example, using cards that could point out the suspect, but not the weapon or the location.

The last time we played this game, the ghost used this technique. All cards pointed to the magician as the main suspect, which made it very easy for everyone to guess which group should be voted on. So, I was thinking if this could be taken as cheating, because the rules state that the ghosts should pick a vision for each card in the group.
Yes, that is against the rules of the game and should be considered cheating.

That being said, it's a co-op game, so if everyone agrees that it was still a win, there is no Mysterium Police that will come swooping in from on high and take away your birthday or anything.

But in general, yes, doing something that is counter to what the rules say you should do is considered cheating.
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Robert O'Hearne
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Chelmsford
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Rulebook p.11 wrote:
The ghost picks three vision cards from his hand. These cards form a shared vision and must all point to the same group. One of the three cards must point to the character in the target group, another to the location, and the final card to the object. The ghost then shuffles the shared vision cards and places them face down in the middle of the table. This group is designated as the culprit’s group.


Fully agree with Trevor. What the OP describes is cheating.
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Chris Merritt
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The rules are pretty explicit that the ghost chooses three cards, one for suspect, one for location and one for weapon. So yes, doing it the way you described could be taken as cheating.
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twl corinthian
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I reckon it's not cheating!

Mainly because it's an unenforceable rule. There's a mix of meanings and they can overlap. The structure encourages the ghost to make 'holistic' decisions about the three final visions, because the players won't know which card is for which aspect of the answer.

However it is a co-op game so it's a bit of a moot point anyway, players can enforce whatever challenge they wish.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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twl_corinthian wrote:
I reckon it's not cheating!

Mainly because it's an unenforceable rule.
That doesn't make it "not cheating." That just means you can get away with it. There's a difference.
 
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
That doesn't make it "not cheating." That just means you can get away with it. There's a difference.


It's not the same as stealing from the bank or having extra cards up your sleeve though.

In this case there's no way to determine that a rule has been broken. The action occurs within the game structure, and is indistinguishable from permitted actions, because the rules provide no mechanism for gauging the ghost's thoughts and intentions.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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twl_corinthian wrote:
In this case there's no way to determine that a rule has been broken.
Sure there is. After the game is over, the other players ask the ghost to identify which vision card corresponds to the suspect, which to the location, and which to the weapon.
 
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Jeff Carter
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ryudoowaru wrote:
twl_corinthian wrote:
In this case there's no way to determine that a rule has been broken.
Sure there is. After the game is over, the other players ask the ghost to identify which vision card corresponds to the suspect, which to the location, and which to the weapon.

and who gets to decide that what (s)he tells you is right or wrong? If you have bad cards, you have to choose SOMETHING to represent each one, even if it's not a GOOD clue
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Trevor Schadt
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IdleHacker wrote:
and who gets to decide that what (s)he tells you is right or wrong? If you have bad cards, you have to choose SOMETHING to represent each one, even if it's not a GOOD clue
If you're playing with a ghost who's willing to bald-faced lie to the other players of a cooperative game rather than saying "that was the best I could come up with for card X" then you need new friends.
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Jeff Carter
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ryudoowaru wrote:
IdleHacker wrote:
and who gets to decide that what (s)he tells you is right or wrong? If you have bad cards, you have to choose SOMETHING to represent each one, even if it's not a GOOD clue
If you're playing with a ghost who's willing to bald-faced lie to the other players of a cooperative game rather than saying "that was the best I could come up with for card X" then you need new friends.

Who said anything about lying? I'm talking about someone being falsely accused
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Trevor Schadt
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IdleHacker wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
IdleHacker wrote:
and who gets to decide that what (s)he tells you is right or wrong? If you have bad cards, you have to choose SOMETHING to represent each one, even if it's not a GOOD clue
If you're playing with a ghost who's willing to bald-faced lie to the other players of a cooperative game rather than saying "that was the best I could come up with for card X" then you need new friends.

Who said anything about lying? I'm talking about someone being falsely accused
If not "lying," then "falsely accused" of what?
 
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
If you're playing with a ghost who's willing to bald-faced lie to the other players of a cooperative game rather than saying "that was the best I could come up with for card X" then you need new friends.


It's not whether or not they tell the truth; it's that every case is ambiguous. There is no unequivocal standard by which to judge the ghost's reasons for matching a card.

To illustrate the problem:

If two of the three correct answer cards are noticeably green-tinted, and none of the wrong answer sets have any prominent green, can I deliberately pick three green-ish vision cards? Can I favour vision cards with more green on them, while also taking account of other aspects? How closely would the visions have to match (or not match) on other criteria to make this permissable? If this is "cheating" then am I actually not allowed to pick any green cards, because that'd match more than one of the answer cards? What about turquoise cards? If one card has a waterfall and one has a swimming pool, is it cheating to use a water-themed vision because it indicates both (rather than just indicating one)? And so on.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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twl_corinthian wrote:
To illustrate the problem: if two of the three correct answer cards are green-tinted, and none of the wrong answer sets have any prominent green, can I deliberately pick three green-ish vision cards?
If the third card either has something related to green, or something related to the art on the third vision card, sure:
"I picked this vision card for the suspect because they're both green. I picked this vision card for the location because they're both green. I picked this vision card for the weapon because <reason>."

twl_corinthian wrote:
Can I err on the side of cards with more green on them, while also taking account of other aspects?
Absolutely.

twl_corinthian wrote:
How closely would the visions have to match (or not match) on other criteria to make this permissable?
That's between you and your conscience.

twl_corinthian wrote:
If this is "cheating" then does that mean I am actually not allowed to pick any green cards?
No.

twl_corinthian wrote:
What about turquoise cards? And so on.
"Slippery slope" argument.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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This whole argument is coming down to a point I made in the post above:

The line between "cheating" and "not cheating" in this game comes down to the ghost and their conscience. If you can justify to yourself that there was some small association between a vision card and a player card, go for it.

I played in a game recently where the final suspect I chose was the gardener, in (some location that I don't remember) with the garden shears. Did I choose two cards that both had to do with gardening? Sure. How did I decide which card went with the gardener and which went with the shears? I flipped a fmecking coin in my head. Was it cheating? Absolutely not. Why not? Because there was still a card that equated to the suspect and a card that equated with the weapon, and the card that equated with the location (which was an indoor location, as I recall, but regardless had nothing to do with gardening) had to do with that card, not either of the others.
 
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twl corinthian
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Sorry I edited it a bit there. But:

ryudoowaru wrote:
If the third card either has something related to green, or something related to the art on the third vision card, sure"


Ok so please tell me what definitively counts as green. What counts as related to green. What counts as symbolically suggestive of green. And so on. My friend perceives colour differently to me; is it cheating to use red to mean green?

ryudoowaru wrote:
twl_corinthian wrote:
If this is "cheating" then does that mean I am actually not allowed to pick any green cards?
No.


Why not? Doing so would contravene the rulebook. It says one card must indicate the weapon, one the person, one the place.

ryudoowaru wrote:
"Slippery slope" argument.


Yes -- of your making! You are essentially saying there's no problem because "this card means such-and-such", when the whole purpose of the cards is that they are ambiguous. Please provide me with a definitive list of card meanings which are acceptable reasons for using that card.
 
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Did I choose two cards that both had to do with gardening? Sure. How did I decide which card went with the gardener and which went with the shears? I flipped a fmecking coin in my head. Was it cheating? Absolutely not.


That's the exact opposite of the argument you made at the start!

It's actually a good example of why this behaviour can't be considered cheating: if your rationalizations for your own interpretations are valid, then (absent any system for interpreting the cards, which the game necessarily doesn't provide) so are everyone else's.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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twl_corinthian wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Did I choose two cards that both had to do with gardening? Sure. How did I decide which card went with the gardener and which went with the shears? I flipped a fmecking coin in my head. Was it cheating? Absolutely not.
That's the exact opposite of the argument you made at the start! That's a great example of why it's not cheating and why it can't be cheating! If the rationalizations you invent for your own interpretations are valid, then so are everyone else's!!
The original argument talked about having all three vision cards pointing to one player card and completely bypassing the other two. If you've conflated my original argument with something else, that might be the cause of your confusion.
 
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Jeff Carter
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ryudoowaru wrote:
IdleHacker wrote:
Who said anything about lying? I'm talking about someone being falsely accused
If not "lying," then "falsely accused" of what?

I don't understand what you're asking. What I'm talking about is:

I am the ghost. I have bad cards, so I pick card A for the suspect (this is a good clue), card B for the location (this is an ok clue), and card C for the weapon (this is a bad clue, but the best I have).

Someone says "cards B and C both point to the suspect also, you aren't supposed to do that!"

You are saying that I have to tell what card I assigned to each one and then someone determines whether I cheated or not. Who gets to decide and on what grounds? I didn't lie and didn't cheat, but because I didn't have good cards, someone could think I had. Not sure where your "bald-faced lie" comment came from
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Trevor Schadt
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IdleHacker wrote:
I don't understand what you're asking. What I'm talking about is:

I am the ghost. I have bad cards, so I pick card A for the suspect (this is a good clue), card B for the location (this is an ok clue), and card C for the weapon (this is a bad clue, but the best I have).

Someone says "cards B and C both point to the suspect also, you aren't supposed to do that!"
Ah! I see the problem: you're assuming a much more accusatory tone from the players than I am.

In the games that I've played, normally after the game is over -- especially if the group guessed wrong -- the idle chatter includes asking the ghost "So what card mapped to what?" for the final round. If the ghost replies "This was the best card I had for that, and it was a stretch but I was kind of thinking..." that's all the justification we generally need. However, if the ghost said "Well, all three of them pointed to the suspect and I just ignored the located and weapon" I would point out that that's against the rules of the game.
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
If the ghost replies "This was the best card I had for that, and it was a stretch but I was kind of thinking..." that's all the justification we generally need. However, if the ghost said "Well, all three of them pointed to the suspect and I just ignored the located and weapon" I would point out that that's against the rules of the game.


...I'm not sure you've really enhanced the gameplay much at that point
 
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Trevor Schadt
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twl_corinthian wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
If the ghost replies "This was the best card I had for that, and it was a stretch but I was kind of thinking..." that's all the justification we generally need. However, if the ghost said "Well, all three of them pointed to the suspect and I just ignored the located and weapon" I would point out that that's against the rules of the game.
...I'm not sure you've really enhanced the gameplay much at that point
...I'm not sure I see your point.
 
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
...I'm not sure I see your point


Hmmm I haven't explained it very well.

ryudoowaru wrote:
How did I decide which card went with the gardener and which went with the shears? I flipped a fmecking coin in my head. Was it cheating? Absolutely not. Why not? Because there was still a card that equated to the suspect and a card that equated with the weapon, and the card that equated with the location (which was an indoor location, as I recall, but regardless had nothing to do with gardening) had to do with that card, not either of the others


All of that is subjective. I might associate gardens with different images or objects or places.

It doesn't matter how typical or obvious my interpretation seems to me. We could each think up endless examples of "obviously reasonable" interpretations, but a consensus is not the same as a rule.

If the ghost uses an elephant to mean a typewriter because "elephants are similar to typewriters", the game provides no method for determining the ghost's motives or saying that their interpretation is valid.

The effect of this necessary ambiguity is that it's impossible to actually break this rule. Even "random whim" is a legit reason for assigning one particular vision to a particular card.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Our fundamental disagreement seems to be that you seem to equate "there's no game mechanic to prove that you were cheating" with "you weren't cheating," while I do not. We can go around and around trying to convince each other that we're right, but it's not going to do any good, because we are disagreeing over the concept of what constitutes "cheating."

Which, as I believe we have both stated earlier in the thread, is an academic argument anyway; there is no Mysterium Police that will come crashing into your house and take your game away if you don't play according to the printed rules. But then again, that's the case for any game: they're called "house rules."

(Heck, I play with a house rule that gives players extra Clairvoyance points in an attempt to discourage intentionally incorrect guessing. But the fact that we're playing with that house rule is clearly established before the game starts.)

Let's just agree to disagree.
 
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twl corinthian
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Our fundamental disagreement seems to be that you seem to equate "there's no game mechanic to prove that you were cheating" with "you weren't cheating," while I do not


Slightly mis-stating the subtle nuances of my view there...

It's because the "cheating" could be indistinguishable from legit gameplay that I feel compelled to give players the benefit of the doubt -- hence my answer to OP's original question. It would be unfair to condemn a player for cheating (or for incompetence) when the same actions could have been completely honest. If my ally helps me by deliberate cheating, then reveals it afterwards, I can't claim any moral high ground as I am complicit in it. If anything my grievance is with the game designer.

In a sense this type of rule is *more* of a flaw in a co-op game, since I depend on my ally to ensure my victory, whereas in a duel to the death I could hardly begrudge my opponent's seizing every advantage!

However it really is just down to the conscience of the player group.

ryudoowaru wrote:
let's just agree to disagree


oh alright but for the record I hate agreeing
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