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Subject: Holdfast Atlantic/Pacific! rss

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Geoff Conn
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So this bomb just dropped in my inbox; Worthington is putting out not one but two new games in the Holdfast line, and this time it is ww2 naval. And to top it off, it is a homage/port of the classic AH War at Sea/Victory in the Pacific games.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1456271622/holdfast-atl...

Wow. Still, looking at the maps posted, they seem a little...too much like the originals. Yes blocks and simplified rules, great but...if you are including uboats, where is the mid atlantic gap? How can one recreate the hunt for the Bismarck if the entire north atlantic is one area? For that matter, what about the Graf Spee? Cant even attempt that one there....point being, the map is just...not granular enough to really play fog of war games with the blocks.

So yeah, excited and kinda dissapointed at the same time. Seems like they took the AH maps and slapped blocks into it. That may work well on one hand, but doesn't try to reach for the holy grail at the same time imo.

Thoughts?
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grant wylie
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Geoff,

No guarantees, but we are testing adding some sea zones in the Atlantic, we just don't want to tinker too much and break the game. Those images are prototypes and the finals may be slightly different. We already split the Med into 2 zones and like that so far.

Thanks
Grant
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George Van Wallendael
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I am taking a wait and see approach before backing this project. Will all the ships that were in WAS and VITP going to be included? That is going to be a lot of blocks! I word own both the Avalon Hill and the L-2 game editions of WAS. I have concerns about the balance issues that may occur by messing with the design. OK, I drank the Cool aid pledged for both games. I am putting my faith on the line that Worthington will do a decent job on these games. I really hope they get the OOB right and give us a few cool options.
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Geoff Conn
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Grant, I take it then this is a port of sorts of the original AH games? Or was your comment more of a 'this game is finished, cant mess with it too much now'?

I have been looking for a strategic naval ww2 game with significant fog of war for sometime. Is there any chance of having a flip side of the map with more regions or even hexes? Aren't the other holdfast games all hexes? This would allow for more ducking and weaving and 'where is he going?' questions for both sides. More granularity essentially.

Also will there be rules for quick port departure (operation cerebus), bad radio reports (dummy blocks), contact and break contact rules (finding ships in open seas can be very difficult...oceans are big! especially if one doesnt want to be found).

My dream game would incorporate all of that plus the mid atlantic gap, radar and asw development, night and day battles in the pacific, and more.

Being able to recreate the Graf Spee's flight and battle for instance is a must in my eyes.

Is any of this doable or done already? Or simply beyond the scope of these games? As it looks this looks on the easier scale of things which makes them usable with my son, but a flip side of the map and advanced rules for myself and other grognards would be the cream on top!
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Any word on how many blocks per game? Curious about the order of battle.
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Black Bart
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Based on what we can see on the KS page:

The maps are identical to those of WaS and ViTP (except the Mediterranean which has been split into two zones). All the point values are the same too.

No ship speeds, only one attack strength (no gunnery + airstrike). No determination of day or night battle, air attacks go first and surface ships have to attack other surface ships if present. And block fog of war of course.
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Donald Brent
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This is the first project I've ever backed on KickStarter. Probably won't be the last, but put myself down for both games at the early bird price of $119. So far the stretch goal extras are 2 mounted map boards (one for each game).
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Black Bart
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I was biting my tongue earlier but these look more like a rip-off than a homage to me.

I expect most of the subtlety (certainly from ViTP) will be gone, and adding fog of war (what other elements are added?) to the concept will reduce strategy and realism in favour of bluff and luck.
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Seth Owen
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urbanus wrote:
I was biting my tongue earlier but these look more like a rip-off than a homage to me.

I expect most of the subtlety (certainly from ViTP) will be gone, and adding fog of war (what other elements are added?) to the concept will reduce strategy and realism in favour of bluff and luck.


Bluff and luck are part of realism and strategy. Neither side, not even the code-breaking Americans, had detailed knowledge of the other side's order of battle or locations on a consistent basis. Bluff was a notable part of many operations -- for example, in the lead in to Midway, Nimitz had Halsey make sure to be spotted in the South Pacific before heading back north for Midway. This contributed to the Japanese complacency that American carriers would not be present during the critical early phase of the battle.

Now, it may be that VITP is a more subtle GAME than these new Holdfast titles prove to be. It will be hard to tell until we get to lay them, but VITP (and War at Sea) have never been considered especially realistic simulations so criticizing these new games on those grounds seems odd.
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Tim Koppang
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In a less accusatory sense, I am wondering why I should play HoldFast Pacific instead of Victory in the Pacific. The latter can still be obtained for cheaper than $65 via eBay if you're willing to purchase a used copy. So what are the differences, and why do they matter? Blocks are one aspect, but is that all?
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Brad Andrews
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I recently got the other 3 Holdfast games from the last KS campaign, but the price of this one is getting me to hold off. The others weren't cheap of course, but this still hits a bit high for me.

Just a comment. Possibly still worthwhile.
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Derry Salewski
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. . . give a ship.
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I am sure some store will have them for some percentage off msrp so . . . yeah.

No point in backing.
 
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skippen
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Tempted, but that is one set of unexciting maps.
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Leo Zappa
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1 "Copying" seems a bit harsh, since the designer/publisher have gone out of their way to note that these game are an homage to the original WAS/VITP. In my mind, "copying" is a negative comment usually reserved when the designer does not acknowledge their inspiration.

2 I'm fine with the changes and think that adding the block fog of war mechanic could really take these games to a whole new level, where the limits of naval intelligence are nicely accounted for.

3 I agree that the maps shown in the current photo are uninspiring. Frankly, the maps with the original games were their weakest aspect, and I'd certainly like to see maps with more character this time around. Perhaps (hopefully) the final versions will have more engaging graphics.
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Sean T
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I've picked up the original AH War at Sea and VitP in the last year. I've played War at Sea a few times and enjoyed it. I've only read the rules to VitP so far, but it seems like a nice stepping stone up from WaS. As a recent war game convert, I think having these two games back in print and available is a great idea.

I like the simple maps. The focus of these games are not the terrain, and the maps are clean and important information is clear. The old AH were similarly simple, but the colors used were a bit garish.

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Lee Troutman
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gittes wrote:
Any word on how many blocks per game? Curious about the order of battle.

I'm very curious about this as well. IIRC, there were very large stacks of Allied units wandering about in the later stages of ViTP.

I like block games as much as anyone (maybe more), but it appears as though HoldFast: Pacific could have some serious "block bloat" towards the end of the game as increasingly large numbers of Allied vessels are basing in tiny (in terms of map real estate) little port areas.
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Carl Paradis
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cscottk wrote:
Tempted, but that is one set of unexciting maps.


Same here. I have the original Avalon Hill games and I'm still sitting on the fence for those two titles. Why do I need these? I am still waiting to experience that "wow" factor that would make me order the set. soblue
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Leo Zappa
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Also, to pick a nit (but then, only naval warfare buffs are going to appreciate these games to begin with), make sure to use the correct silhouettes for the ships. Case in point - the Oklahoma block shown in the KS page. The silhouette shown is not that of the Oklahoma, but of her post-Pearl Harbor modernized sister Nevada. The Oklahoma should have two tripod masts, while the post-attack Nevada had her tripod mainmast removed, and that's the picture on the Oklahoma block. Using the right artwork will be greatly appreciated by the target audience for the games.





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grant wylie
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Okay, those aren't the final maps folks, but it is maps of two oceans so they aren't going to be but so inspiring. It uses many concepts from the originals but there are significant changes coming. There is day and night combat but much more subtle than the classic which we quite honestly felt was wonky. The yellow numbers are airstrike numbers which are day units.

Please tell me how many aircraft carriers involved themselves in gunnery battles against other ships? I am curious because in my readings, and I have read a number of books on the Pacific over the years, I don't recall any of significance.

I am not a naval expert so if anyone see's a ship that isn't correct please let us know. We've gone through these the best we can and will continue to review.

We are adding some cool options and tweaks that I think will surprise ya some.

We appreciate the comments and have already corrected the Oklahoma. If you see anything else please let us know as the system is down and it is Holdfast.

All the best and happy gaming!!!
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Sean McCormick
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To be honest, I generally like the maps, which are more subdued than the WaS/VitP versions. But to each their own.
 
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Geoff Conn
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Interesting. Sounds like more of a homage of sorts than a direct port then.

When can we see the rules???
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Scott Henshaw
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cartking24 wrote:
Please tell me how many aircraft carriers involved themselves in gunnery battles against other ships? I am curious because in my readings, and I have read a number of books on the Pacific over the years, I don't recall any of significance.


During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, multiple US escort carriers,fired upon Japanese ships attacking them with one claimed to have sunk a cruiser with it's 5" gun mounted on the fantail. Only known case of a carrier sinking another ship via gunfire!.
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Rich M
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I would bite on this KS if I cold get a pacific naval game in this broad strategic style with some kind of AI player.
 
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Eddy Sterckx
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
I would bite on this KS if I cold get a pacific naval game in this broad strategic style with some kind of AI player.


War Plan Pacific - basically a computer version of Victory in the Pacific - has a very decent AI

A free demo : http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Demos/DD_WPP.html
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Jim Ransom
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This is the only look at me you will get. The first hint the bad guy gets that I am nearby will be the sound of the torpedo coming out of his baffles with high up-doppler.
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ScottH wrote:
cartking24 wrote:
Please tell me how many aircraft carriers involved themselves in gunnery battles against other ships? I am curious because in my readings, and I have read a number of books on the Pacific over the years, I don't recall any of significance.


During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, multiple US escort carriers,fired upon Japanese ships attacking them with one claimed to have sunk a cruiser with it's 5" gun mounted on the fantail. Only known case of a carrier sinking another ship via gunfire!.


A nice dream, but it didn't happen quite that way. In the Battle off Samar, the escort carriers of Taffy 3 were under heavy attack in daylight by Kurita's Center Force. Two were lost, but thanks to the valiant and ferocious counterattacks at heavy cost by escorting US destroyers and DEs (Hoel, Johnston, Heerman, Samuel B Roberts) and planes, Kurita abandoned the attack and his plans to press on to Leyte Gulf and atttack the transports there. While the opposing ships were close enough for a couple CVEs to get a few hits while they were trying to escape (White Plains claimed a few hits on cruiser Chokai, which damaged her and led to the coup de grace by an attacking bomber), no Japanese ships were lost solely due to gunfire from the carriers.
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