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Xia: Legends of a Drift System» Forums » Variants

Subject: Xia: legacy? rss

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Richard Spruce
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With the success of Pandemic legacy and the possible disappointment of Seafall (the initial reviews are not completely positive) I was thinking about possible future Legacy games. I think Xia would lend itself perfectly to the legacy system.

If the upgrade system was slowed down some (maybe make the outfits/bigger ships more expensive or reduce the rewards for hauling cargo/exploring) then players could slowly improve their ships over a number of games. Maybe you could have a crew slot in your ship where you could hire people you meet at planets to give you special abilites?

The story could be driven by missions - maybe the first game everyone starts at your home planet with the mission to seek out new life forms. As players explore they get to name the planets they find and each has an alien race they can interact with. Maybe they are friendly who want to trade or set up alliance with the players. Or maybe they are a bunch of thieves who begin to pirate the space lanes (which might later lead to a story mission where the local defense force hire you to take care of them? Or maybe you have to option to join the pirates but in doing so makes you become an outlaw with lasting consequences. Maybe 2 alien races are at war with each other and you have to pick a side?

Each game could be to a set number of fame points with bonuses to players who advance the story. At the end of the game you get to keep your ship, your outfits and your money for the next game. As Xia is a drift system it explains why you dont know where the planet is for the next game but when you do find them you already have some sort of relationship the the inhabitants of the plannet.

My idea of this is kinda like a combination of seafall (but with the bonus of using an already established game to build from) with the a classic sci fi story added to it where the decisions you make shape the system for games to come.

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Bojan Brankov
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I sincerely hope people will give up on the whole Legacy shenanigans.
Few reasons:
1. It is extremely hard to design, balance test and produce.
2. It is playable only once and then is (mostly) useless.
3. It usually requires you to destroy or permanently change components, which is outrageous.
4. It requires or at least suggests same group of people for the multiple sessions.


In the final result it will take more time, more resources, more money to produce the game that will destroy itself. Imagine a book that self destructs when you finish reading it, not allowing you to borrow it to your friends afterwords.

Limited number of plays aspect doesn't bother me as long as someone else can enjoy it after me.

This concept is an interesting experiment but it should have remained in the digital form where it belongs.
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Siegfried Steurer
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I am absolutely looking forward to Charterstone ... "building" your Legacy game into your own that is replayable in the end sounds like the best of both worlds to me. So if Xia legacy, please this way.
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Richard Spruce
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dukelander wrote:
I sincerely hope people will give up on the whole Legacy shenanigans.
Few reasons:
1. It is extremely hard to design, balance test and produce.
2. It is playable only once and then is (mostly) useless.
3. It usually requires you to destroy or permanently change components, which is outrageous.
4. It requires or at least suggests same group of people for the multiple sessions.


I agree with 1. It is difficult to test and design but that's not a reason not to do it.

I see 2,3 and 4 as why legacy games are great! Its a story that you experience with the same group, your friends create a narrative unique to them and share something individual. It changes and develops as you play. And once the story is finished it you can reflect back on it and talk about it. I know more that one person planning on displaying their legacy games once they are finished in a way that reminds them of many awesome evenings spent with their friends.
I've heard a few folk say how its a lot of money to simply throw away after you're done but I think the money spent is tremendous value for money. Take pandemic legacy - cost £50. minimum number of plays is 12 times so that's £4.17 per play. Divide by 2 as the minimum number of players and its £2.83 for a hours entertainment. Where else can I get quality entertainment for an hour for £2.83? And most of the time cost per play is going to be much lower.

At the end of the day though, its always a choice to play a legacy game. No one has to play if they dont want and there will always be non-legacy games out there for those that dont want to play.
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Tor Sverre Lund
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I have nothing against games that can "only be played once", take T.I.M.E Stories and Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, for instance. LOVE them. But they can be played by others. I can trade it away. I can't do that to a legacy game. Basically, it is "consumed". And that part I don't like.
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Baker Odom
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With the success of Risk Legacy, the preorder success of Seafall (we'll see how it does critically), and the mega success of Pandemic Legacy it's safe to say Legacy games aren't going anywhere. And that's not even considering the fact that games like Charterstone, Chronicles: Origins, and Ultimate Werewolf Legacy are still on the way.

I don't understand statements by people wishing for Legacy to disappear. The existence of Legacy does not prevent non-legacy games from being created. Why is it such an affront to some people that they exist? I have little desire to play party games and yet I have no issue with them existing. 18xx games seem like an enormous waste of time to me and yet I'm fine with them being designed and enjoyed by those who enjoy them.
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Ira Fay
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Back to the OP's comment, I'll mention that the upcoming Xia expansion contains a solo campaign with persistent elements over many games. In campaign mode, you must complete 10 goals (you get the choose the order) with 1 goal per game. If you fail, you try again later. So the first solo campaign runs for 10-15 games. After each game, you pick an upgrade that persists for the duration of the campaign, and upgrades have 3 tiers. For example, there's an engine upgrade path that gives you +1 to all engine rolls, and the tier 2 upgrade is +3 instead (which requires you to have picked the tier 1 upgrade previously). And the tier 3 upgrade is +5 instead.

I'm not sure there's a formal definition of legacy yet, but I'll note that in the solo campaign has persistence of upgrades, and after you complete each goal, it turns into a reward card that you can use once-per-game in future games. You don't destroy any game components, except that you might write on the campaign log and record your upgrade selections. But there is definitely long-term persistence.

For multiplayer legacy elements (persistence), I've definitely discussed it with Cody, and I think we could go even farther with another solo campaign, heavier on story. We're focused now on getting the first expansion off to the printers, but I'm hopeful there might be more Xia sometime in the future, if the player desire is there.
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David desJardins
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thebaker1983 wrote:
I don't understand statements by people wishing for Legacy to disappear. The existence of Legacy does not prevent non-legacy games from being created.


I think it's human nature to get annoyed when you see other people having fun and you aren't.
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Baker Odom
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Ira, the work you've done with the solo campaign is fantastic and certainly adds a whole new level of replayability to Xia (and I've only seen a pre-kickstarter prototype so I'm very excited for the final product). If you and Cody find a way to add a campaign mode to multiplayer in the future as well that would be amazing.

As far as Legacy goes...Legacy is technically a type of campaign. However, the key thing with Legacy is that it involves permanence. The changes made cannot be undone. What you're describing so far for Xia is a campaign (which is great!) but not Legacy.

Xia Legacy could be pretty amazing but I can't even imagine the time and work that goes into creating something like that...just the difficulty in playtesting alone seems staggering.
 
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Derek Dyer
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I'll post later with my thoughts on Xia: Legacy, but for now I wanted to:

Give a big thumbs up for the Solo campaign. Ira's done a great job with it. It's fun and quite challenging.

Give a big thumbs down for people that can't post on topic. If you don't like legacy games, then you shouldn't be posting in this thread. This thread is for "Xia + Legacy", anything else is off topic and if it doesn't drive the discussion forward, is unwelcome (at best).

Legacy games are fine. If you actually break them down like Richard Spruce did, you can pretty easily see that they are worth their cost to hours of entertainment value. Even for a group of people that love Pandemic Legacy, and keep replaying, it's value is still completely worth the cost. Don't get me wrong I had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of legacy when I first encountered it... and I get it, that people are used to buying a game once and having it last forever. How many games have you bought that you can't get to the table, or as often as you'd like?
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Seth Gray
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DaviddesJ wrote:
thebaker1983 wrote:
I don't understand statements by people wishing for Legacy to disappear. The existence of Legacy does not prevent non-legacy games from being created.


I think it's human nature to get annoyed when you see other people having fun and you aren't.


I don't think it has anything to do with people being annoyed at anyone having fun. It's just a simple matter of to each their own. Some people don't like the idea of games that can only be played once, and others do. Either is fine.
If the legacy model does continue to have success I think it could have interesting ramifications on the board game industry as a whole. Whether those are good or bad are yet to be seen.
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David desJardins
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Schwall wrote:
I don't think it has anything to do with people being annoyed at anyone having fun. It's just a simple matter of to each their own. Some people don't like the idea of games that can only be played once, and others do. Either is fine.


No, that doesn't explain why people wish that legacy games would disappear. There are things that I don't enjoy, but I see other people enjoying; I don't want those things to disappear, I want the other people to be able to continue to enjoy them. To want the things that other people enjoy to disappear, just because I personally don't enjoy them, would seem meanspirited.
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Baker Odom
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Schwall wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
thebaker1983 wrote:
I don't understand statements by people wishing for Legacy to disappear. The existence of Legacy does not prevent non-legacy games from being created.


I think it's human nature to get annoyed when you see other people having fun and you aren't.


I don't think it has anything to do with people being annoyed at anyone having fun. It's just a simple matter of to each their own. Some people don't like the idea of games that can only be played once, and others do. Either is fine.
If the legacy model does continue to have success I think it could have interesting ramifications on the board game industry as a whole. Whether those are good or bad are yet to be seen.


To be clear my issue is not that some people don't like Legacy. That is absolutely fine (which my original post reflects). My issue is with people (like the person who made the second post in this thread) who want Legacy games to not exist at all and go out of their way to derail forum threads to push that idea.

EDIT: Added clarification
 
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Peter Cobcroft
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So - legacy is the commercialisation of the concept of a campaign now. Good to know that consumerism has increased its foothold on well established grounds.
 
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Derek Dyer
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Well this thread has just about been ruined by people wanting to talk off-topic. If I was the OP I would start a new thread, though I fear it getting the same irreverence.
 
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Karl
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The comparison between legacy and party games is a bit off however. I might not play party games but I know others do and whatever. I might not like legacy games but I know others do - so far so fine. However, for legacy games I additionally might detest the fact that they are built to break. They are built to produce waste. Just like many modern appliances are built to break to increase profit for the companies. And that is a valid concern that reaches farther then a 'I just don't like them'. So yes, IMHO the opinion that legacy games should not exist is a valid one.
 
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Stefano Colombo
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I like the feeling of this game, but i play only Solo (my best game is Mage knight, i love it). With this Expansion, can Xia be considerated ONLY for the Solo play? Or it is just a good add-on but the core is still Multiplayer?

The Legacy system in Campaign is very intriguing and i like it
 
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Steve
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The expansion adds rules to play solo, and even a solo campaign.
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Randy D

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kilrah wrote:
The comparison between legacy and party games is a bit off however. I might not play party games but I know others do and whatever. I might not like legacy games but I know others do - so far so fine. However, for legacy games I additionally might detest the fact that they are built to break. They are built to produce waste. Just like many modern appliances are built to break to increase profit for the companies. And that is a valid concern that reaches farther then a 'I just don't like them'. So yes, IMHO the opinion that legacy games should not exist is a valid one.


Legacy games are built to be played. A permanently changing board or components of the game is part of the experience you don't get with games that essentially reset every time. For many people, this heightens the tension & experience of the game knowing your choices will permanently affect the game as well as the story as it unfolds and this is an experience that many people enjoy in their gaming. I am glad such games exist for those who enjoy playing them.
 
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David Forby
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To me, it would be a simple matter of making a fan based Legacy system. You would simply put in new stuff or swap out boards.
Some titles/events, missions, and even the play-board tiles can change. It is a sand box game after all. I do not need to have an official one.

Though it would be interesting to have a Patron set up where Cody puts out new missions, board tiles, titles, and ships. For a Legacy game set up, do it through a Patron set up. Through that Patron set up he could also blog other things, what has worked and hasn't worked in his modifications of the game.
 
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Steve
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I think the Campaign system Cody is putting into the expansion could be used as the framework for a fan based legacy system. You could even tie in some of the fan made tiles into it, like someone made an unstable planet, that once it explodes, it is gone for the rest of the campaign.
 
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