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Subject: Question about the 'directly increases the power of a minion' rss

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Raistlin
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An Action that gives +1 power to all minions (without a specified target) is treated as an Action that 'directly increases the power of a minion' ?
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Vespert Ilio
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Yes.
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Raistlin
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Wow instant response

Thanks!
 
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Wim D
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and I confirm the yes.
 
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Daniel F
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What about adding power counters? Does the cards that adds the counters "directly" raise the minion's power, or does it just directly add counters that then themselves directly increase the power?
 
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Vespert Ilio
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Yes, placing power counters on a minion counts. But, transferring power counters already in play to a minion does not.
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Alfred Spangler
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I wondered about this too, but I think the better question is What DOESN'T count as "directly increasing the power of a minion"? Can you INdirectly increase the power of a minion...?
 
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Vespert Ilio
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Yes, you can. Actions that indirectly increase power can be:
- Actions that transfer a +1 power token or a power-increasing action to another minion;
- Actions that get rid of a card that was decreasing a minion's power by destroying/moving/transferring/returning/etc. it;
- If playing the action increases a minion's power because of another card's ability, for example, playing any non-power-increasing action on Furious George increases its power but it comes from Furious George's ability, not the action itself;
- Actions that give a minion the talent to increase its power, for example The Touch.
This list is not exhaustive.

Edit: During playtest, it was stated by Paul Peterson that Cellular Bonding counts as an action that directly increases power if it copies another action that also directly increases power. Not sure if it was made official after the playtest was done.
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Daniel F
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Another good (and relevant) example that doesn't "directly" increase the power is a card that gives a minion an ability that increases its power (like many of the Changebot actions).

But thanks for the advice on power counters. That's how we played it--the alternative explanation seems overly legalistic.
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Marek Čtrnáct
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Here's a question: What happens when I play Matrix of Bossiness on Mimic?

Rules say that actions that increase the printed power (which pretty much only applies to the Matrix of Bossiness) count as directly increasing, but the Mimic's own ability rewrites its power anyway, and it's possible that there's already a minion with power 6 or more (like General Ivan), so Matrix of Bossiness won't actually increase Mimic's power.

My interpretation is that the action still counts as directly increasing the power, the increase is just rewritten by a later effect.

EDIT: Another question that pertains specifically to Walking Carpet. It says:
[quote]
Special: Before this base scores, if you are not winning, you may play an action that directly increases the power of this minion.
[/quote]

How does this play with conditional cards, like ...It Just Might Work?
[quote]
Discard a Madness card to give each of your minions +1 power until the end of the turn.
[/quote]

Once I play ...It Just Might Work, I can decide whether to discard a Madness card or not, and the power increase happens only when I discard it. So, is it legal to play ...It Just Might Work through Walking Carpet, and then not discard?

In other words, if the action requires any decisions (apart from targeting minions, Walking Carpet makes it clear that you have to target minions in such way that it is the affected minion, or one of them), do you have to make decisions that will result in power increase?
 
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Vespert Ilio
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After playing the action, the power of the minion must have increased after you finish resolving it. An increase of 0 doesn't count.

For "... It Just Might Work", you have to discard a Madness card for it to count as an action that directly increases a minion's power.

Other cards that were asked about during playtest when you're allowed an extra action that directly increases a minion's power:
- Fairy Godmother (Draw a card OR one minion gets +2 power until the end of the turn.): You have to choose the +2 power;
- Encouragement Power (Play on one of your minions. Ongoing: This minion has +1 power for each of your other minions here.): The minion you play it on must be on the same base as one of your other minions.

For Matrix of Bossiness, it only counts as a direct increase if, as a result of playing it, the minion's printed power (and therefore its total power) is actually increased. Mimic is a special case though. Its ability is not written that way, but I interpret Mimic as copying a minion's printed power if it's greater than its own (usually 0; 5 with Matrix of Bossiness), so Matrix of Bossiness would only directly increase Mimic's power if no other minion in play has a power of 5 or more. If a minion like General Ivan is in play, then Matrix of Bossiness would not count. Note that it's just my interpretation, official ruling may very well differ.
 
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Marek Čtrnáct
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OK, tried to put together a comprehensive list of actions that directly increase power and how they probably work with Walking Carpet.
For Walking Carpet, I presume that you may make decisions where nothing gets the bonus (for example not discarding anything to Embiggen), but not decisions that would completely eliminate Walking Carpet from the group of potentially affected cards while leaving other minions in it (such as playing Door to Beyond on a different base that where Walking Carpet is at).
Even if a card says that it always increases power, there might be corner cases where it's actually not true (for example if it increases power of one minion and there are no minions in play when you play it).
For Space Prince, just replace "Walking Carpet" with "any of your minions".

...It Just Might Work, Cull the Weak, Embiggen, Potion Bandolier
Increases power if you discard at least one card. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it, but you can still choose to not discard any cards.

Angry Mob
Increases power if you place at least one card on the bottom of your deck. When played via Walking Carpet, Walking Carpet must be chosen as the affected minion, but you are not compelled to place any cards on the bottom of your deck.

Augmentation, Block the Probe, Dinner Date, Favor of Ares, Favor of Dionysus, Headlong, Potion of Idiotic Bravery, Use the Fours, Yield to Rage
Always increases power. When played via Walking Carpet, Walking Carpet must be chosen for it.

Body Shop
Increases power if you choose a minion with power 1 or more for destruction. When played via Walking Carpet, you must place at least one +1 power counter on it if possible. But if you, for example, decide to destroy Walking Carpet itself, then it won't be possible to place any counters on it and you can split them without limitation.

Boots of Butt-Kicking, Cesium Armor, Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment, Chest of Holding, Cyberevolution, Dumbbell, Dunwich Horror, Expanded Power, Heirloom, Juiced Up, Laser Sword, Leaf Armor, Splice as Nice, Upgrade
Always increases power. When played via Walking Carpet, it must be played on it.

Buffet
Increases power if it places at least one +1 power counter. Cannot be played via Walking Carpet because it's a Special action that must be played after a base scores.

Campaign
Increases power if it's played on a base which has at least one minion you control, and also at least one monster (in some cases, they can even be one and the same). When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose Walking Carpet's base, whether there's a monster there or not.

Cellular Bonding
Increases power if it copies an action that directly increases power (usually through an Ongoing ability). However, since it only becomes an action that directly increases power AFTER being played, Cellular Bonding can't be played via Walking Carpet.

Crack of Dusk, IT'S ALIVE!
Increases power if a minion is actually played. Can't be played via Walking Carpet since there's no possible way for it to increase a power of minion that is already in play.

Daisy Chain
Increases power if played on your minion. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it.

Door to the Beyond
Increases power if you have two or fewer cards in your hand immediately after playing it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on its base, but you're not required to have two or fewer other cards in hand.

Dragon Lands
Increases power if you have at least one minion on the base where you play it. Can be played via Walking Carpet, but it's usually not necessary since you can just play it via its own Special ability.

Enchantment
Increases power if you have at least one minion on the base where you play it and choose the first mode. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on its base, but you can still choose either mode.

Encouragement Power
Increases power if you have at least two minions on the base where you play it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play Encouragement Power on it, but you're not required to have another minion on the same base.

Fairy Godmother
Increases power if you choose the second mode. When played via Walking Carpet, you can still choose either mode, but you must target Walking Carpet if you choose the second one.

Favor of Hera, Fimme the Prize
Always increases power (if you choose at least 1 minion). When played via Walking Carpet, it must be one of the minions chosen for this action.

Form Mergacon
Increases power if you have at least one minion on the chosen base. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose its base.

Frenzy
Increases power if you have at least one minion with power 4 or more. Can be played via Walking Carpet if its power is currently 4 or more.

Full Moon, Join the Club, Rotary Slug Thrower
Increases power if you have at least one minion on the base where you play it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on its base.

Genetic Shift
Always increases power. When played via Walking Carpet, you may choose either mode, but you must choose Walking Carpet if you choose the second mode.

Good Habits, Howl, Jolt, Swashbuckling, That's So Crazy...
Increases power if you have at least one minion. Can be always played via Walking Carpet.

Justice Friends
Increases power if you have at least one minion with power 5 or more. Can be played via Walking Carpet if its power is currently 5 or more.

Kneepads of Allure
Always increases power. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on a minion on the same base as Walking Carpet.

Mad Monster Party
Increases power if you have at least one minion with no +1 power counters. Can be played via Walking Carpet if it currently has no +1 power counters.

Matrix of Bossiness
Increases power if played on a minion with printed power 4 or less. When played via Walking Carpet, it must be played on it, even if its current printed power is 5 or more.

Pumping Iron
Always increases power. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it if opponent chooses any other minion; however, if opponent happens to choose Walking Carpet for the +2 increase, you're free to use the +3 increase on any minion.

Shield of Ubiquity
Increases power if played on a minion on a base with at least 1 monster. When played via Walking Carpet, it must be played on it; however, a presence of a monster on the base is not required.

Super Future Space Armor Power
Increases power if you have at least two minions on the base where you play it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose the base where it is, but you're not required to have another minion there.

The Deep Ones
Increases power if you have at least one minion with power 2 or less. Can be played via Walking Carpet if its power is currently 2 or less.

The Price of Power
Increases power if any other player has a Madness card in hand. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it.

Things Best Not Known
Increases power if you draw at least one Madness card. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it, but you can still choose to not draw any Madness cards.

War Cry
Increases power if a monster is actually destroyed. When played via Walking Carpet, you must first choose a monster on its base, and then Walking Carpet, but you are not required to successfully destroy the monster.

We Will Rock You
Increases power if you have at least one minion with a +1 power counter. Can be played via Walking Carpet if it currently has 1 or more +1 power counters.
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Vespert Ilio
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Marek14 wrote:

For Walking Carpet, I presume that you may make decisions where nothing gets the bonus (for example not discarding anything to Embiggen), but not decisions that would completely eliminate Walking Carpet from the group of potentially affected cards while leaving other minions in it (such as playing Door to Beyond on a different base that where Walking Carpet is at).

Actually, you do have to make the decision to give Walking Carpet a power boost. It's its ability. If you choose to play an action thanks to its special ability, the action must directly increase Walking Carpet's power. So, if you play Embiggen via Walking Carpet's ability, you have to discard at least one card.
 
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Vespert Ilio
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Here are a few changes. And great job making that list! (I left out the cards when I agreed with you)
Marek14 wrote:

...It Just Might Work, Cull the Weak, Embiggen, Potion Bandolier
Increases power if you discard at least one card. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it and you must discard cards.

Angry Mob
Increases power if you place at least one card on the bottom of your deck. When played via Walking Carpet, Walking Carpet must be chosen as the affected minion and you must place cards on the bottom of your deck.

Body Shop
Increases power if you choose a minion with power 1 or more for destruction. When played via Walking Carpet, you must place at least one +1 power counter on it if possible. But if you, for example, decide to destroy Walking Carpet itself, then it won't be possible to place any counters on it and you can split them without limitation. (I'd say, you cannot destroy Walking Carpet if you play Body Shop via its ability, because after you finish resolving Body Shop, Walking Carpet's power must have increased.)

Campaign
Increases power if it's played on a base which has at least one minion you control, and also at least one monster (in some cases, they can even be one and the same). When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose Walking Carpet's base and there must be at least one monster there.

Cellular Bonding
Increases power if it copies an action that directly increases power (usually through an Ongoing ability). However, since it only becomes an action that directly increases power AFTER being played, Cellular Bonding can't be played via Walking Carpet.(I'd say you can play it via Walking Carpet, Cellular Bonding becoming that other action happens while you resolve its ability, not after)

Crack of Dusk, IT'S ALIVE!
Increases power if a minion is actually played. Can't be played via Walking Carpet since there's no possible way for it to increase a power of minion that is already in play. (TO BE CONFIRMED: They probably count as actions that directly increase a minion's power for the Alien Guru (though I'm not sure), but I believe they cannot be played via Space Prince's talent. Usually when an ability refers to a minion without any precision, it's implied that it's a minion "in play". So Space Prince's talent should be understood as "Talent: Play an extra action that directly increases the power of one of your minions in play." When you play Crack of Dusk or IT'S ALIVE!, the minion only comes into play while you resolve their abilities. Though again, it's to be confirmed by an official source)

Door to the Beyond
Increases power if you have two or fewer cards in your hand immediately after playing it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on its base and you must have two or fewer cards in your hand after playing it.

Enchantment
Increases power if you have at least one minion on the base where you play it and choose the first mode. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play it on its base and you must choose the first mode.

Encouragement Power
Increases power if you have at least two minions on the base where you play it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must play Encouragement Power on it and you must have at least one other minion on its base.

Fairy Godmother
Increases power if you choose the second mode. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose Walking Carpet and the second mode.

Matrix of Bossiness
Increases power if played on a minion with printed power 4 or less. When played via Walking Carpet, its printed power must be 4 or less before playing it and Matrix of Bossiness must be played on it.

Shield of Ubiquity
Increases power if played on a minion on a base with at least 1 monster. When played via Walking Carpet, it must be played on it and there must be a monster on its base.

Super Future Space Armor Power
Increases power if you have at least two minions on the base where you play it. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose the base where it is and you must have at least one other minion there.

Things Best Not Known
Increases power if you draw at least one Madness card. When played via Walking Carpet, you must choose it, but you can still choose to not draw any Madness cards. (It's a special already)

War Cry
Increases power if a monster is actually destroyed. When played via Walking Carpet, you must first choose a monster on its base, and then Walking Carpet, but you are not required to successfully destroy the monster.
 
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Marek Čtrnáct
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I look at it from the point of view of strict logic (in the light of recently announced computer adaptation). I see playing a card as a sequence of decisions and actions, not as something that's done all at once.

The problem with Walking Carpet is that in order to play an action, it wants to know information (whether the power of Walking Carpet will be increased) that won't be actually known until AFTER the action is played. And the question is, to what extent you are bound to the desired result when you make decisions for the action.

The Price of Power is an extreme example where it might be impossible to know in advance whether there will be an increase in power or not (though it's not a big problem because it could be in any case simply played via its own Special ability).

But with ...It Just Might Work, if you want the player to be committed to discarding a Madness card, what happens if he has none? Is he unable to play the card in this situation? Or is he able to play it without effect? How will he prove that he has no Madness cards?
The enforced discard might work with Embiggen (which, unlike the other three cards, doesn't set any conditions for the discarded cards, so it's always clear whether you can discard for it or not), but I included it to make it simpler.

In order to find the simplest solution and avoid endless corner cases and special rulings for each new card, I suggested, as a rule of thumb, that if the action lets you do something optional in order to increase power, you can still decline to do it. It just seems cleaner.

War Cry is also a weird case. You need to successfully destroy the monster, but what if you don't know whether that happens? An example might be if another player controls the monster, and also controls Drone. Drone can use its ability to save the monster from destruction, but you won't know whether it will do so or not until you actually try to destroy the monster.

As for Cellular Bonding, what happens when you use Cellular Bonding to copy an action that says "Play on your minion"? Are you still free to play Cellular Bonding on a minion you don't control? If yes, then the card is first played and only later becomes a copy. If no, then the interaction with Walking Carpet could work as you say. I am unsure here.

As for Body Shop, there is another corner case. Body Shop doesn't use "to" wording, which means that the counters are not conditional on successful destruction - so you could conceivably target an indestructible Walking Carpet for destruction and split +1 power counters according to its power, as long as you put at least one on Walking Carpet itself. This would mean that the Body Shop interaction would get needlessly complex ("you can't target Walking Carpet for destruction, unless it's immune").

Finally, consider Shielding. If an opponent plays Shielding on your Walking Carpet, it cannot be affected by your actions, which includes changes in power and placing +1 power counters. In this case, practically no action you could play can actually increase Walking Carpet's power, but is that really something that has to be taken into account? Or is it just another needless complication? I'd say that Shielding shouldn't be taken into account when deciding whether a card can or can't be played through Walking Carpet.
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Vespert Ilio
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You raise a lot of good points.

As per the rules, in this game, you're supposed to do as much as you can. So if you play an action via Walking Carpet, I believe you're supposed to follow the instructions as much as possible towards directly increasing Walking Carpet's power. If, while you're doing so, something prevents you from completing that task, then it's the case of "can't trumps can" mentioned in the rules. You played an action that could have increased Walking Carpet's power, but something made it impossible, so you don't increase it. So it should come from an impossibility to do something, rather than you having the choice of whether to increase Walking Carpet's power or do something else, and deliberately choosing to do something else. Though, it's just my opinion based on what I know about the rules, an official answer is still needed to confirm or invalidate it.

Quote:
But with ...It Just Might Work, if you want the player to be committed to discarding a Madness card, what happens if he has none? Is he unable to play the card in this situation? Or is he able to play it without effect? How will he prove that he has no Madness cards?

... It Just Might Work is indeed tricky. Even for normal use. Since it's in imperative form, it tells you that you must discard a Madness card, but it doesn't tell you to prove that you have none. In my opinion, you must discard a Madness card if you have one because it tells you to. If you don't have one, you just wasted Walking Carpet's ability.

Quote:
War Cry is also a weird case. You need to successfully destroy the monster, but what if you don't know whether that happens? An example might be if another player controls the monster, and also controls Drone. Drone can use its ability to save the monster from destruction, but you won't know whether it will do so or not until you actually try to destroy the monster.

That example is actually the simplest scenario to solve. It's a case of "can't trumps can" or having your action Wil Wheatoned. War Cry is simply discarded and you just wasted Walking Carpet's ability.

Quote:
As for Cellular Bonding, what happens when you use Cellular Bonding to copy an action that says "Play on your minion"? Are you still free to play Cellular Bonding on a minion you don't control? If yes, then the card is first played and only later becomes a copy. If no, then the interaction with Walking Carpet could work as you say. I am unsure here.

This is also simple: the rules say you're supposed to do as much as you can, just following the instructions. Let's say you play Cellular Bonding on another player's minion. Next, you choose an action. It says "Play on one of your minions"? Too bad, it's already played, so ignore that part and move on to the rest of ability. So Cellular Bonding can copy any action played on minions, it's just that you ignore the part that says "Play on one of your minions" because it can't be done. One scenario I can see where it's important is if you copy Change Into A Gun (Play on one of your minions to destroy a minion of power 4 or less there. Ongoing: This minion has -2 power. Destroy this card at the start of your turn.) Since it was not played on one of your minions, you cannot destroy a minion of power 4 or less, but Cellular Bonding still has the ability "Ongoing: This minion has -2 power. Destroy this card at the start of your turn." Although one thing that needs clarification is that if Cellular Bonding was played on one of your minions and you copy Change Into A Gun, can you still destroy a minion of power 4 or less? While resolving Cellular Bonding, when you get to the sentence that says "Play on one of your minions to destroy etc." Cellular Bonding is already played on a minion and cannot be played a second time.

Quote:
As for Body Shop, there is another corner case. Body Shop doesn't use "to" wording, which means that the counters are not conditional on successful destruction - so you could conceivably target an indestructible Walking Carpet for destruction and split +1 power counters according to its power, as long as you put at least one on Walking Carpet itself. This would mean that the Body Shop interaction would get needlessly complex ("you can't target Walking Carpet for destruction, unless it's immune").

Okay, your scenario of destroying Walking Carpet regardless of immunity makes more sense now that I think about it. Needs official ruling.

Quote:
Finally, consider Shielding. If an opponent plays Shielding on your Walking Carpet, it cannot be affected by your actions, which includes changes in power and placing +1 power counters. In this case, practically no action you could play can actually increase Walking Carpet's power, but is that really something that has to be taken into account? Or is it just another needless complication? I'd say that Shielding shouldn't be taken into account when deciding whether a card can or can't be played through Walking Carpet.

Very good point. In light of the previous comments, I'd say that you can play an action to try and increase Walking Carpet's power, even though in the end Shielding prevents it from affecting Walking Carpet.
 
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Marek Čtrnáct
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For ...It Just Might Work, I'd say that the game does not run on honor system -- unless an effect forces a player to show hand (like The Spy Who Ditched Me), your hand is secret. I think you if you do anything involving a secret zone (discarding a specific kind of card, searching your deck for a specific kind of card, etc.) you should be always allowed to fail, no questions asked. This is kinda supported by the fact that ...It Just Might Work uses "to" wording so if you don't discard a Madness card, you lose the rest of the effect as well, but I understand that it's just an interpretation.
 
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Vespert Ilio
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That's very true. Usually, cards are worded so players can check if other players are doing things correctly. For example, each time a card tells a player to search for a specific card in their deck, it should always tell them to reveal it to the other players, so they can make sure that player didn't (purposely or not) take another card. Unfortunately, there can be some omissions, like the Killer Plant card "Budding" (Choose a minion in play. Search your deck for a copy of that card and place it into your hand. Shuffle your deck.), which doesn't tell the player to reveal the card they took.
 
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Marek Čtrnáct
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Vespert wrote:
That's very true. Usually, cards are worded so players can check if other players are doing things correctly. For example, each time a card tells a player to search for a specific card in their deck, it should always tell them to reveal it to the other players, so they can make sure that player didn't (purposely or not) take another card. Unfortunately, there can be some omissions, like the Killer Plant card "Budding" (Choose a minion in play. Search your deck for a copy of that card and place it into your hand. Shuffle your deck.), which doesn't tell the player to reveal the card they took.


I would say you'd have to reveal the card even in this case -- especially because everyone else knows which specific card you were supposed to find so no extra information would be revealed anyway.
 
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You can compare it to Faceless City, which actually tells you to reveal it, even though everyone else knows which card they looked for ("Once per turn, after you play a minion here, search your deck for a copy of that minion, reveal it, and place it into your hand. Shuffle your deck.") Not saying that a player would refuse to reveal the card they got via Budding just because it doesn't force the player to reveal it, but Faceless City makes sure everyone can check it's the right card that was drawn.
 
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Marek Čtrnáct
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I think that there should be some general rules that should cover such cases. Ironically, in computer version revealing for Budding would be really unnecessary because cheating would be impossible in any case
 
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