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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: The current state of how expansions are done is terrible. Your voice counts! rss

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Kyle Pede
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2 part expansions with reused content we don't need after buying the latter? It's a disgusting waste of box space and of the consumer's money. If you agree, please voice your opinion. Even if it's a simple "I agree". We are the ones buying this stuff, and our opinion should matter. I don't want to be resold the same stuff from another box (conditions, walls).
 
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Void Null
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I guess you have never played Arkham Horror.
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Kyle Pede
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voidofopinion wrote:
I guess you have never played Arkham Horror.


No, I haven't. Do tell.
 
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Soylent Green
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Yeah - I'm with ya - I complained in another thread about this yesterday - but realize that was the off-topic thread.

My main bit of disgruntlement was purely with how LITTLE was in the box!

While the hybrid classes may prove to be interesting - the implementation just kinda felt lazyish... what I mean by that - is it allowed for "new classes" without having to actually make new classes.

Only 8 plastics was a little cheap of them...

Lastly - I want more app content - I know this wasn't for the app... I get that - this continues/finished the traditional story with another expansion - but still... the app exists, it is my primary method of play, so that is how I will judge future expansions.

What do I want in future expansions?

Heroes? NOPE
Classes? NOPE
Monsters? NOPE

I want unique tile sets, effects, conditions, things that can make for exciting and engaging events within the app and in the game. If they were to sell like what PowerGrid does with maps... you just pickup a shrinkwrapped pack with a new map in it - or how they packaged the pieces for Runebound... just a pack like that with 5-6 sheets of items that could be punched out...

Like this - Descent Scenario Pack includes:
- 4-6 sheets of new and unique map tiles, terrain pieces, and new tokens to adventure in the exciting ruins of whateverplace
- 5 new "wet your pants/embarrassment" condition cards
- 8 page booklet with 4-5 scenarios and story for a mini-campaign/adventure for the traditional style of play
- Tiles are used in the latest "Adventure to whateverplace" in the RtL App


That's the stuff I want!
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Void Null
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In Arkham Horror, every expansion adds to the "dilution effect" which is a nice way of saying that the more expansions you add the less cohesive theme the game carries. As such, you were expected to play with one big box and one or two small boxes. It was so bad FFG released a final big box expansion that added to all the other expansions so you could play the entire set together.

Elder Sign is doing a similar thing. New expansions no longer add to the base game but suppliment it, so 90% of the base game and first expansion are now worthless if you want to play Gates of Arkham.

The Arkham games are an extreme example, but a small level of redundancy goes with the hobby if a game is to evolve. Do you think anyone uses the base game Zombies in an open group if the have all of the H&M packs?
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Kyle Pede
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SoylentRed wrote:
Yeah - I'm with ya


Thank you!

SoylentRed wrote:
I want unique tile sets, effects, conditions, things that can make for exciting and engaging events within the app and in the game. If they were to sell like what PowerGrid does with maps... you just pickup a shrinkwrapped pack with a new map in it - or how they packaged the pieces for Runebound... just a pack like that with 5-6 sheets of items that could be punched out...

Like this - Descent Scenario Pack includes:
- 4-6 sheets of new and unique map tiles, terrain pieces, and new tokens to adventure in the exciting ruins of whateverplace
- 5 new "wet your pants/embarrassment" condition cards
- 8 page booklet with 4-5 scenarios and story for a mini-campaign/adventure for the traditional style of play
- Tiles are used in the latest "Adventure to whateverplace" in the RtL App


That's the stuff I want!


The Powergrid idea sounds fantastic!
Here's my take on an expansion:
Does Not Contain:
-Heroes
-Reused Content from other expansions
-Half of a campaign

Contains any of the following (or stand alone):
-Classes ( I would appreciate seeing another Healer and Mage)
-Or Hybrid Classes ( I Would also like the rest of the cycle in one expansion as it's only 32 cards)(G/R, R/G, R/B, G/Y, Y/G, Y/B, B/R, B/Y)
-Shop Items are always nice
-New Conditions
-Tiles! ( I plan on making my own variant and tiles always are welcome)
-Mini Campaign
-Roleplaying Book (To play like dnd; everything is readily available outside of how the dm works)
-Rumor Cards (Sorry, I like them)
-Errata Pack (I'm lookin at you, lotw quest rewards)
-New Mechanics (I think SoN Influence was cool because it was unknown information. Anything with hidden knowledge is great for this game.)
-A weapon/armor builder mechanic (picking up scraps to build great things)
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Kyle Pede
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voidofopinion wrote:
Do you think anyone uses the base game Zombies in an open group if the have all of the H&M packs?


No one should be using zombies if it doesn't call for them. Even in the base game. I get what you're saying though.

Also, thanks for your reply. What else would you like to see in ( and out of) an expansion?
 
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Jonathan Hersey
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yeah it's annoying when they reprint the same material. They are trying to make each expansion usable on it's own (with the base game of course) and also incorporate all of the game concepts developed to this point. As a result they have to include a green die in every expansion because you might not own any of the others. I don't like the format personally, I'd rather they just either flush out new concepts every time they make an expansion, create modular expansions, or just don't make one at all. They have so much content already that I really just want them to work on the app. there is such a huge pool of material available that they could create very creative things with what is already existing thus further enhancing the value of what we already own.


I don't think that Elder Sign is a similar comparison because they are not duplicating any content and with the expansions they are creating versatile ways to play the game. Pretty much all my games mash all the expansions in to one big pile and that makes it so a lot of the expansion material rarely gets seen (take any deck builder for example). With Elder Sign if i want to play Gates of Arkham I will get enjoy the contents of that expansion without them having to compete with everything else.
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Steve Williams
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The only thing I didn't like was the wait between the two. I think splitting it in two was a manufacturing concession more than a money grab. FFG has more games than ever, and only so much dev time and factory slots to put towards each line. Maybe being in small boxes let them print it when they otherwise would have had to push it back for a year or more. The extra tokens/walls/conditions seems like a petty complaint to me; it didn't impact the cost of the set much, and belps that odd person out who only gets Chains and can't get Mists for one reason or another.
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Kyle Pede
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IncrediSteve wrote:
The only thing I didn't like was the wait between the two. I think splitting it in two was a manufacturing concession more than a money grab. FFG has more games than ever, and only so much dev time and factory slots to put towards each line. Maybe being in small boxes let them print it when they otherwise would have had to push it back for a year or more. The extra tokens/walls/conditions seems like a petty complaint to me; it didn't impact the cost of the set much, and belps that odd person out who only gets Chains and can't get Mists for one reason or another.


I think we deserve to know why it was split in two, rather than assume. As for the reprint of condition, a similar, or even worst mechanic would have been better imo.

Thanks for sharing your opinion Incredisteve!
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gary gee
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yes,I never thought I would say this about this game and company..WE HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF...paying almost full game prices for a small [very small contents wise].box expansion...I think someone mentioned earlier about development or production..this and the mists expansion will have been designed etc together so could have come out as a big box expansion!...even then I don't think it would have the amount of content the big box expansions have...yes,very disappointed in FFG
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Mlai00 Mlai00
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Is each box of MOB or CTR really much more sparse than a small box mini-campaign such as LOTW? Seems like equivalent amount of plastic and campaign content when you compare from that perspective.
 
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JH
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I dunno, guys. As I said in the other thread I get the disappointment if you're primarily an app player, because there's not much here for you; but then, there's about the same in any of them—heroes, classes, shop items, monsters and map tiles. But if you go for tabletop Mists and Chains are pretty close to other releases:

Small expansions:

Lair
10 figures (8 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
31 large cards
38 small cards
12 map tiles
47 tokens (12 repeats)
5 quests

Trollfens

9 figures (7 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
1 die
43 small cards
33 large cards
9 map tiles
39 tokens
5 quests

Manor
10 figures (8 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
39 small cards
31 large cards
16 map tiles
9 tokens
6 quests

Mists

12 figures (all monsters)
21 small cards
14 large cards
16 map tiles
34 tokens
8 quests

Chains
8 figures (all monsters)
39 small cards (4 repeats)
19 large cards
15 map tiles
45 tokens (44 repeats)
9 quests

Large expansions:

Nerekhall
16 figures (12 monsters, 4 heroes)
4 hero sheets
2 dice
73 small cards
48 large cards
46 map tiles
33 tokens (10 repeats)
19 quests

Labyrinth
17 figures (13 monsters, 4 heroes)
4 hero sheets
2 dice
77 small cards
42 large cards
18 map tiles
90 tokens (47 repeats)
19 quests

Chains + Mists
20 figures (all monsters)
60 small cards (4 repeats)
33 large cards
31 map tiles
79 tokens (44 repeats)
17 quests

Pick either Mists or Chains and compare it to the other small expansions, and you'll see either one has more or less of something than another of the same-priced expansions. Combine them into a single larger expansion for comparison to the other large expansions, and it's clear the pair still has more of some things and fewer of others, depending on what you're comparing them to.

Are Chains + Mists worth $20 more than Labyrinth because together they have 13 more map tiles and 3 more figures? Does Mists alone not have the same value as Trollfens even though it has more monster figures, map tiles and quests? I dunno, guys. It's up to you to decide if this is a ripoff, I suppose. Looking at these expansions all together, it doesn't seem like one to me. To me they seem comparable to other small expansions individually, and perhaps a slightly worse deal as a pair for what you get compared to other big expansions.

Honestly, there's been a LOT of variance in contents between the expansions. Mists and Chains don't seem very far outside that variance to me, if they are at all. Either offers more sheer content at $40 than any hero and monster pack does at $35. (And let's not forget some of the components of earlier expansions are all but useless — ever used those inactive monster tokens outside of Lair, where they're used in, what, one quest?).

EDIT: OP, I can move this to the other thread if you prefer; just say the word.
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Kyle Pede
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Mlai00 wrote:
Is each box of MOB or CTR really much more sparse than a small box mini-campaign such as LOTW? Seems like equivalent amount of plastic and campaign content when you compare from that perspective.


lotw:

1 lieutenant plus token
act I items
act II Items
Relic(s)
Mini Campaign
2 Heroes
2 Classes
1 Overlord Class
Tiles
Condition
2 Monsters
Some Door Type

CtR

3 Other halves of 3 Lieutenants with 3 more of the same tokens
0 act I items
9 act II items
3 Relics
Half a campaign
0 Heroes
4 Hybrid Classes (technically 12 cards total, where a normal class is 11 cards on it's own!)
1 Overlord Class
Tiles
1 Reused Condition
3 Monsters (wowee!)
Same door type as MoB
 
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Kyle Pede
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
I dunno, guys. As I said in the other thread I get the disappointment if you're primarily an app player, because there's not much here for you; but then, there's about the same in any of them—heroes, classes, shop items, monsters and map tiles. But if you go for tabletop Mists and Chains are pretty close to other releases:

Small expansions:

Lair
10 figures (8 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
31 large cards
38 small cards
12 map tiles
47 tokens (12 repeats)
5 quests

Trollfens

9 figures (7 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
1 die
43 small cards
33 large cards
9 map tiles
39 tokens
5 quests

Manor
10 figures (8 monsters, 2 heroes)
2 hero sheets
39 small cards
31 large cards
16 map tiles
9 tokens
6 quests

Mists

12 figures (all monsters)
21 small cards
14 large cards
16 map tiles
34 tokens
8 quests

Chains
8 figures (all monsters)
39 small cards (4 repeats)
19 large cards
15 map tiles
9 quests

Large expansions:

Nerekhall
16 figures (12 monsters, 4 heroes)
4 hero sheets
2 dice
73 small cards
48 large cards
46 map tiles
33 tokens (10 repeats)
19 quests

Labyrinth
17 figures (13 monsters, 4 heroes)
4 hero sheets
2 dice
77 small cards
42 large cards
18 map tiles
90 tokens (47 repeats)
19 quests

Chains + Mists
20 figures (all monsters)
60 small cards (4 repeats)
33 large cards
31 map tiles
71 tokens (36 repeats)
17 quests

Pick either Mists or Chains and compare it to the other small expansions, and you'll see either one has more or less of something than another of the same-priced expansions. Combine them into a single larger expansion for comparison to the other large expansions, and it's clear the pair still has more of some things and fewer of others, depending on what you're comparing them to.

Are Chains + Mists worth $20 more than Labyrinth because together they have 13 more map tiles and 3 more figures? Does Mists alone not have the same value as Trollfens even though it has more monster figures, map tiles and quests? I dunno, guys. It's up to you to decide if this is a ripoff, I suppose. Looking at these expansions all together, it doesn't seem like one to me. To me they seem comparable to other small expansions individually, and perhaps a slightly worse deal as a pair for what you get compared to other big expansions.

Honestly, there's been a LOT of variance in contents between the expansions. Mists and Chains don't seem very far outside that variance to me, if they are at all. Either offers more sheer content at $40 than any hero and monster pack does at $35. (And let's not forget some of the components of earlier expansions are all but useless — ever used those inactive monster tokens outside of Lair, where they're used in, what, one quest?).

EDIT: OP, I can move this to the other thread if you prefer; just say the word.


You beat me to type it out!
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Magic Pink
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SoylentRed wrote:


What do I want in future expansions?

Heroes? NOPE
Classes? NOPE
Monsters? NOPE


This is exactly what I want in my expansions. Tile sets are incredibly boring.
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Soylent Green
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Magic Pink wrote:
SoylentRed wrote:


What do I want in future expansions?

Heroes? NOPE
Classes? NOPE
Monsters? NOPE


This is exactly what I want in my expansions. Tile sets are incredibly boring.


See - it was hard for me to type that actually - cause I like my plastics too... but we have SO MANY types of heroes and monsters as it is...

I'd rather they work on creative and engaging environments and stories than on just another hero or three...

We have:

64 heroes
56 monster2
20 LTs

Surely we have variety a plenty.

More classes - sure - some class packs could be a lot of fun.

I'd even love to see a series of small campaigns they create that require us to use certain heroes... It would be a fun narrative and experience to see them craft quests around a particular set of skills and character abilities. Or classes for that matter...

I don't think - at this point - the long term solution for this should just be more heroes and monsters to just add more heroes and monsters. It needs engaging, fun, and unique content that makes us go - DANG, now THAT was a fun quest!

I've had that in the app already - and I really want more of that.
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JH
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InfinityBlack14 wrote:
You beat me to type it out!

The whole thing or just that last line?
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Nate Parkes
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I have no problem with the current state of how expansions are done.

I think being able to combine the Chains that Rust mini-campaign with the Mists of Bilehall campaign is a fair trade-off for having a few repeated conditions, doors, and monster tokens.

The issue with the smaller expansions is that the mini-campaigns felt like an afterthought (in the case of Lair of the Wyrm, it literally was an afterthought). Basically, the smaller boxes served to add more options for the existing full campaigns.

The two most recent expansions offer a comparable level of new options for the full campaigns, but also collectively add a completely new full campaign. That's pretty huge. I'd definitely rather play through the combined bilehall/chains campaign then plan the Lair of the Wyrm and Trollfens mini-campaigns back to back.
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Kyle Pede
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
InfinityBlack14 wrote:
You beat me to type it out!

The whole thing or just that last line?


Everything above that line, actually
 
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Kyle Pede
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I think we can all agree on the following:

After the following conditions are met, stop making more heroes:
Reprint all old heroes
Print a new mage and healer to go with their new classes

That's it! It makes perfect sense (to me).
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Bucho Bucho
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Sarcasmorator wrote:

But if you go for tabletop Mists and Chains are pretty close to other releases:

No, not so much.

Sarcasmorator wrote:

Chains
8 figures (all monsters)
39 small cards (4 repeats)
19 large cards
15 map tiles
9 quests


So that comes out to.
The fewest figures of any small box.
The fewest new small cards of any small box prior to MoB.
The fewest large cards of any small box prior to MoB.

OK the number of map tiles is good but it's still just the same 4 sheets of cardboard and to make up for blatantly shorting us on everything else would take a REALLY stellar job of map tiling.

Instead they wasted 1 out of the 4 sheets. By the time I got to punching out that big block of damage tokens that literally NO ONE needs it felt like I was punching out a token of FFG giving me the middle finger.
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Bucho Bucho
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Eldil wrote:

I think being able to combine the Chains that Rust mini-campaign with the Mists of Bilehall campaign is a fair trade-off for having a few repeated conditions, doors, and monster tokens.


Getting them to combine into a new full campaign is AWESOME. Don't get me wrong I'm super happy about that part.

But I just payed $80 for $50 of game and for them to waste a bunch of what they are giving me with redundant content and useless damage tokens adds insult to injury.
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Kyle Pede
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I'm glad that we've had many people here express their concern for what they did with recent expansions. So our next step should be our plan of action. This could go many ways. So, we should discuss what's best.

1. Email or write a letter of our concerns
- We should all formulate what's wrong as a team, so our message is clear.

2. Sit and do nothing
- ....
 
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Nate Parkes
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InfinityBlack14 wrote:
\
CtR

3 Other halves of 3 Lieutenants with 3 more of the same tokens
0 act I items
9 act II items
3 Relics
Half a campaign
0 Heroes
4 Hybrid Classes (technically 12 cards total, where a normal class is 11 cards on it's own!)
1 Overlord Class
Tiles
1 Reused Condition
3 Monsters (wowee!)
Same door type as MoB


The Hybrid classes are 4 cards each, so 16 cards total.
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