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Subject: Is the first player at a huge disadvantage? rss

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Day Life
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So we were playing this last night and during our chatting we were wondering if there should be some kind of bonus for the first player?

It appears that maybe the 1st player has a distinct disadvantage.

For starters there is no way for the 1st player to place a jungle tile. So no matter where you place the initial tile the next player can place their tile in a way that allows them to put down a jungle tile. So form turn 1 you are already slightly behind.

Still the real problem seams to lie during the end game. The first player runs out of tiles first. This means that once player 1 is out of the game play 1 can only sit and passively watch as the other players use the sundials to over build on temples to gain the majority. As the player count grows this problem seams to get larger and larger. For in a three player game there is a number of moves that you need to wait for after you are out. SO the chances of holding onto temple majority is smaller and smaller as you can have up to three powerful tiles placed with no chance to ever do anything yourself.

Maybe something as simple as some starting gold for the player order. 1st gets 3 gold, 2nd gets 2 gold, 3 gets 1 gold, 4th gets nothing... or something like that? I am not a designer.

What are your thoughts on 1st player disadvantage in this game?
 
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Jens www.spielefreun.de
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Overtext is really cool. The best 100 GG I've ever spent.
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I agree there's a distinct first player DISadvantage in this game.

Therefore, we play that you can build over your own tiles as soon as you only have the 3 tiles in your hand left - no matter how many jungle tiles there are still in the supply.
This way, every player can build over his tiles 3 times - if he has enough sun stones.

edit: advantage should mean disadvantage
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Day Life
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Motorkopf wrote:
I agree there's a distinct first player advantage in this game.


Sorry, are you saying that the 1st player has the advantage? Because I was kinda saying the opposite... could you explain your thinking?
 
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Jens www.spielefreun.de
Germany
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Overtext is really cool. The best 100 GG I've ever spent.
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Well. I'm actually bored with overtext. Why did I give all that GG away?
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You are correct. DISadvantage is the right word.
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Day Life
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ahh ok.. yeah... it dose seam to be a issue.
 
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Alexandre Lima
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So what you're saying is that temples are harder if you're first player, which makes sense. My proposed solution is simple: if you're the first player, don't focus on temples. There are various other sources of points in the game.
 
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Day Life
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I do not think it is just that... 1st player can never place a jungle tile.. so right off the 1st turn you are behind and getting what is given rather than working towards your own goals. Then at the end, all the other players need to do is wait for the 1st player to finish and then they are completely free to instantly get majority at any temples and score huge points and these are completely uncontested moves. There is nothing the 1st player can ever do. In fact the advantage keeps going, it is all about how the 1st player is unable to respond to any of the points gains form the other players.

My solution is to give the 1st player some extra gold at the start. So last player gets nothing, then incremental gold to 1st player.

4=0
3=1
2=2
1=3

 
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Alexandre Lima
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I'm still not convinced the disadvantage is as big as you think or that 3 coins would fix it, but proving that would require tons of plays.

Remember that to get those "huge" temple points you're missing out selling cacao or improving your water track. From our plays, "huge" points (especially with sun tokens) come from selling cacao—but maybe it's a group thing? And it's not that 1st player can't respond to anything during the game, it's just the first and last rounds that are different—but the same applies to almost every other game!

Anyway, feel free to try your solution and if you do please report your findings.
 
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Dino Zaur
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I've been thinking about this and also not convinced. Some thoughts:

The first player is actually the first player that can place a tile adjacent to two of his own worker tiles. If another player plays a jungle tile first, often he is not the only one who profits from the tile.

At the end it might also be an advantage because the sooner you can place your worker tiles, the higher the chance that it will get surrounded by jungle tiles on all sides, taking full advantage of your workers.

Finally, in the final round you know as first player that other players can still react to your final move. But you can also force them to react. For example, if you place your tile to gain influence at a temple, he might have to reconsider selling some cacao in order not to lose his majority at the temple.
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