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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: Cheese the King's Man? (King's Man fight spoilers) rss

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David Tolin
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I posted this over on Reddit, but I'm also curious about BGG's take:

So, the KM always executes his basic action first, then draws an AI card. His basic attack targets:

a) the survivor in his blind spot,
Or
b) the closest threat.

If he has no target, he ends his turn and has extra toughness until the next round.

With that in mind, if all survivors have fecal salve equipped and activate it, the KM won't even move (ever) until one of them attacks. So, what's to stop the party from doing this:

1. Everyone apply fecal salve
2. Spend as many turns as necessary to surround KM (but not in blind spot)
3. Every survivor turn, everyone attacks, then surges to apply fecal salve again
4. Repeat until KM dies (without KM ever taking an action on his turn)?
 
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IA Seldon
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You'd never hit through his toughness? That Guard move makes it really difficult to wound, and then he'd react. Plus King's Step
Would waste most of your actions. Better to double-green tank with shields and aim for a king's step.
 
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David Tolin
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IASeldon wrote:
You'd never hit through his toughness? That Guard move makes it really difficult to wound, and then he'd react.


I assumed reactions are where this cheesiness would meet its doom, but I don't actually know what lies under those first 3 HL cards (we've only fought him twice and got demolished both times).

But, if you're assured he won't be attacking on his turn, it seems hard to believe reactions would be enough to put your team down. As for the toughness, it wouldn't be that hard to overcome. Just bring high-strength characters with hefty weapons.

IASeldon wrote:
Plus King's Step
Would waste most of your actions.


I don't have the game in front of me. Remind me what King's Step does?
 
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Thomas Patrick
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DavidT wrote:
I don't have the game in front of me. Remind me what King's Step does?

King's Step are the top 3 cards of his Hit Location deck. It cancels the hits and you go through a story event to try and learn his flow of combat.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You can get hurt during the story event. Eventually you should get the fighting art that counters the top 3 HL cards.


Edit to remove most of the quote since I'm only responding to a small part of it
 
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IA Seldon
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You can be badly hurt during the story event. Low rolls are severe injuries, iirc. I also cannot remember if all of his AI are threat targets or if some might be closest survivor. I know at least one targets a knocked down survivor.

I'd look through the AI deck as a whole before attempting.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Ok, so (suppose we are talking of King's man L1 to keep reasoning simple):
- the HL is named Battle Tempo, while King's Step is the SFA that circumvents it.
- don't forget traps and reactions. If your survivors all surround King's man and he reacts to a wound fail with a swipe, you subject everyone to unnecessary damage.
- you could rely on critical hits with luck charms, deadly weapons and spend some time making your hitters acquire King's step, while a couple of support characters use leather cap and eventually other support items to ensure that not a lot of bad things happen (the guy is practically immune to cat's eye circlet, so no use in trying that).
- in a pinch, you can always run away. While the actual escape result makes things harder for you, the intermediate that places you on a board edge makes you usually safe.
- a twilight sword might also help, if you have some other str bonus, to wound normally through toughness, but it's unlikely that you have it past level 3 on King's man L1, so it's a risky bet due to irreplaceable.

I guess you can try this approach, but it needs more planning. Nice thought, though.
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IA Seldon
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Upon examination, this isn't practical at a level 1 KM.

If he guards, the monster's toughness goes up to 17. Going into the blind spot would bring it down to 13, which is one higher than its base. Using a dagger in the blind spot after a guard gets you 10 toughness with the right locations.

But to reattempt the attack pattern suggested, you'd have to dash out of the blind spot and surge the fecal salve. This, of course, after having cleared out the battle pressure, which would either require more surges to fecal salve, the dagger-wielder to have king's step very quickly, or you just get bashed aside and hope that the insta-kill for knockdown survivors doesn't pop.

Then there are the reactions from the wound deck that do a basic action and auto-select the target as the attacker. And the perfect strike AI that attacks based on position, not threat.

So, even if you have the strength to wound with a dagger on toughness 13 (10 for some locations) you'd either have to have the entire party in rawhide and always manage to nail the survival return or have an enormous pool of survival to draw upon. I'm not seeing any scenario at LY9 where this would happen. The survival limitation alone would cripple this pattern. I'm in a NG+ now with expansions that give out free innovations and I'm still not beyond 6 survival at LY8.
 
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Adam T
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You could use leather boots to save on some survival for the dash cost, using their movement power to get out of the blind spot after attacking. It still would not carry you through the whole fight, but it might be a good way to start a fight, letting one survivor work on getting King's step, and then starting the real fight after they can peel off battle tempo reliably.

This monster is a real jerk, no matter how you look at it.

Alternatively alternatively, if you are using the tactics cards and badges from the three knight expansions (I forget which one specifically has this card), there's like a battle formation tactics card that lets you spend a survival to auto wound if the survivors stand at all 4 corners of the monster. Since this is not technically an attack, I don't think it would remove the fecal salve, and chances are the King's Man has less health than your group's total survival. Not sure if this would actually work, I don't have any of my cards in front of me.
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David Tolin
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IASeldon wrote:
Upon examination, this isn't practical at a level 1 KM.

If he guards, the monster's toughness goes up to 17. Going into the blind spot would bring it down to 13, which is one higher than its base. Using a dagger in the blind spot after a guard gets you 10 toughness with the right locations.


Not a good idea to try the blind spot, I think, since it eats up survival to get back out. Toughness 17 is not insignificant, but it is not insurmountable. At LY9 in our first-ever campaign (so, not playing too efficiently), we have a few survivors who could handle that number. Not guaranteed wounds, but not bad odds. And don't forget crits.

IASeldon wrote:
This, of course, after having cleared out the battle pressure,


Clearing out battle pressure isn't really a hurdle with this strategy, I think. Just have your first survivor use a high-speed weapon to peel off those three cards (and maybe also get a wound or two). Then the other three survivors have an open field.

IASeldon wrote:
or you just get bashed aside and hope that the insta-kill for knockdown survivors doesn't pop.

Then there are the reactions from the wound deck that do a basic action and auto-select the target as the attacker.


I'm shooting in the dark here regarding reactions, traps, etc. I'm thinking these are the reasons this strategy is risky, at best, and maybe undoable, at worst. I have no idea what is in his HL deck below the battle tempo cards. I'm just hypothesizing based upon our very first encounter with him, which went very poorly.

IASeldon wrote:
And the perfect strike AI that attacks based on position, not threat.


Indeed, AI cards with different targeting conditions will ruin this strategy. But, the crux of the strategy is that the KM never draws any AI cards (because he never gets past his basic action due to lack of targets).

IASeldon wrote:
So, even if you have the strength to wound with a dagger on toughness 13 (10 for some locations) you'd either have to have the entire party in rawhide and always manage to nail the survival return or have an enormous pool of survival to draw upon. I'm not seeing any scenario at LY9 where this would happen. The survival limitation alone would cripple this pattern. I'm in a NG+ now with expansions that give out free innovations and I'm still not beyond 6 survival at LY8.


Yep, survival is the limiting factor. At LY9, we only have 4 per survivor. But, I don't think the pool needs to be "enormous." If everyone is wearing rawhide, 6 "usable" survival is a conservative estimate (could be only 4, but could also be more). But, let's just assume that everyone fails the rawhide rolls and we only have 4 each. That's four turns, which is 16 attack opportunities. KM only has 12 hit points, so this seems like a workable number, if the dice are with you (a big "if"). If we assume the conservative estimate of 6 survival each, that's 24 attacks.

Again, I know I'm proposing an ideal situation without having all of the relevant information (namely, the reactions and traps in the HL deck), but I was curious if anyone with more experience had thoughts on whether this would work. I assume reactions from the HL deck would, in practice, require additional survival to counteract (e.g., to stand up knocked-down survivors, dodge attacks, etc.), and so the strategy would have problems. But, it's interesting to me that you can potentially game the KM in this fashion.

At a minimum, it might be a viable way to safely learn King's Step (3 survivors stand around covered in poo, while a fourth survivor gets 4-5 opportunities to trigger the battle tempo card with no fear of being attacked [aside from the story event itself]). Or, maybe tweak the strategy a bit to make it more viable:

1. 3 survivors Move + Dash + Attack on first turn (getting wound opportunities at normal toughness) + surge to apply fecal salve
2. On following turns, the 3 survivors continue the attack + surge (for fecal salve) pattern, while a 4th survivor stays away and uses the Cat's Eye Circlet to manipulate the HL deck (to avoid traps or particularly dangerous reactions).
 
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Steve Trewartha
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DavidT wrote:


Indeed, AI cards with different targeting conditions will ruin this strategy. But, the crux of the strategy is that the KM never draws any AI cards (because he never gets past his basic action due to lack of targets).



Not sure I get this... If the basic action doesn't target anyone and he guards instead, he still draws an AI card after he guards. It doesn't skip that.
 
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David Tolin
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strewart wrote:
DavidT wrote:


Indeed, AI cards with different targeting conditions will ruin this strategy. But, the crux of the strategy is that the KM never draws any AI cards (because he never gets past his basic action due to lack of targets).



Not sure I get this... If the basic action doesn't target anyone and he guards instead, he still draws an AI card after he guards. It doesn't skip that.


I'm pretty sure it does skip that. His Basic Action says he ends his turn if he finds no targets, iirc.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Don't have the card to check, but usually the instinct ends with "end the turn immediately".

A couple thoughts here:

- you should not aim to pierce toughness with King's man, you should try to crit, for two obvious reasons: 1) crits cancel reactions, a thing you desperately need, and 2) deadly + lucky charms means critting at 8+, that is a decent enough wound chance.

- rawhide sets on your hitters give you a 50% possible boost to your survival on average, if you have a survival limit of 6 (not that impossible to do, but it requires three principles and the right innovations), you can think of surging 9 rounds. You can think of having three hitters and a support guy, that is drastically unbalanced for my playstyle with nemesis monsters, but it could work in this specific case, you may count on a rough maximum of 27 turns to hit, once a turn. This is, admitting that your support can patch you up in time, encourage when needed and you never draw traps or trigger reactions too harsh.

- next is gear grid. There is not much room for your hitters: rawhide takes five spaces, one for lucky charm, one for the other blue affinity, then you need your deadly weapon with a decent hit rate. If you have King's step, even fist & tooth can be your friend (forget the decent hit rate, but consider it if you have monster claw style, that +acc and savage is your best friend), otherwise you need lion beast katars. Now, on LY8, you must aim at having three of them. Forget pairing those, because the last slot goes to the fecal salve.

- now for probability. Assuming your hitters have all King's step, no very bad reactions are ever triggered (very unlikely) and no trap is drawn, you can count on 27 times a 2-speed attack at 6+ that crits on 8+. That means hitting an average of 27 times, critting for roughly 9 wounds. This is not enough, and this is the best case. Often you will be hit or knocked down on a reflex or failure reaction, and in 27 HLs you WILL trigger a trap. Also consider that, with a L1 KM, you still need to get that King's step first, and that is a risky and lengthy proposition, considering that you need to not spend survival in this phase.
- monster claw style helps a lot because of savage. You could potentially kill a KM just because of that first crit every act.
- blue saviors also are a big help here, both for reach and for the innate luck.

Draw your own conclusions here, these are only my considerations spoken loudly.
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David Tolin
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t3clis wrote:
Don't have the card to check, but usually the instinct ends with "end the turn immediately".

A couple thoughts here:

- you should not aim to pierce toughness with King's man, you should try to crit, for two obvious reasons: 1) crits cancel reactions, a thing you desperately need, and 2) deadly + lucky charms means critting at 8+, that is a decent enough wound chance.

- rawhide sets on your hitters give you a 50% possible boost to your survival on average, if you have a survival limit of 6 (not that impossible to do, but it requires three principles and the right innovations), you can think of surging 9 rounds. You can think of having three hitters and a support guy, that is drastically unbalanced for my playstyle with nemesis monsters, but it could work in this specific case, you may count on a rough maximum of 27 turns to hit, once a turn. This is, admitting that your support can patch you up in time, encourage when needed and you never draw traps or trigger reactions too harsh.

- next is gear grid. There is not much room for your hitters: rawhide takes five spaces, one for lucky charm, one for the other blue affinity, then you need your deadly weapon with a decent hit rate. If you have King's step, even fist & tooth can be your friend (forget the decent hit rate, but consider it if you have monster claw style, that +acc and savage is your best friend), otherwise you need lion beast katars. Now, on LY8, you must aim at having three of them. Forget pairing those, because the last slot goes to the fecal salve.

- now for probability. Assuming your hitters have all King's step, no very bad reactions are ever triggered (very unlikely) and no trap is drawn, you can count on 27 times a 2-speed attack at 6+ that crits on 8+. That means hitting an average of 27 times, critting for roughly 9 wounds. This is not enough, and this is the best case. Often you will be hit or knocked down on a reflex or failure reaction, and in 27 HLs you WILL trigger a trap. Also consider that, with a L1 KM, you still need to get that King's step first, and that is a risky and lengthy proposition, considering that you need to not spend survival in this phase.
- monster claw style helps a lot because of savage. You could potentially kill a KM just because of that first crit every act.
- blue saviors also are a big help here, both for reach and for the innate luck.

Draw your own conclusions here, these are only my considerations spoken loudly.


This is a fantastic analysis--thanks! As I suspected, this strategy would have a lot of issues. Which is good to know. I'd hate to think we found a surefire loophole this early into our exploration of the game.

In our doomed fight with the KM, 3 survivors died relatively quickly, and the fourth survivor had fecal salve equipped. That was really the genesis of this thread--the remaining survivor used fecal salve to get in close to the King's Man, and it struck me that KM will just stand there forever if you don't attack.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Thank you for your kind words, but it is probably worth to simulate this one day or the other. I, for one, got wrong the probabilities, that are a bit worse than announced: katars hit on 7+, not on 6+ like I wrote.
 
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Matt Connellan
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His reactions on miss are no joke, and his trap will annihilate your team if they are all surrounding him with fecal salve activated. Plus many of his reactions on hit will knock down which will make that character using fecal salve impossible and allow his basic action to still find a target. Good luck with this strat, but I don't think it has a chance. You of course could encourage, but this plan is already so survival heavy that you'll run out long before he is dead.
 
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Raising Spirit
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I found that using dash is way more succesfull, all the king's man AI cards require line of view so if you place your runnerat 2 or 3 scuares of the monster and once is targeted it dash TO HIDE HIMSELF (behind the columns for example), the monster fail to hit and then it needs to target someone else that can dash again.

If you cant hide behinfd columns or even better the lonely tree, then you can use the fecal after the dash so the survivor is not the target of the secind action. doing it properly you can play hide and seek and only get hited during monster turn when you run out of survival.

I atempted this having a club expert with +1 speed,+3 str(and one token from heat hands), blood paint and two skullcap hammers and ashield, landing 4 atacks of 5 dices every turn then moving back using dash so he wasent the closest threat.

The kings man landed 0 atacks and if he had the chance he had -2 speed ( a lucky crit and the skullcap property) so easy to dodge.

I activated the trap 4 times but shields make you inmune, and also got lucky and got king step the 3rd time I roll in the table.

I feel the strategic was pretty solid.
 
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RedLion0 wrote:

Alternatively alternatively, if you are using the tactics cards and badges from the three knight expansions (I forget which one specifically has this card), there's like a battle formation tactics card that lets you spend a survival to auto wound if the survivors stand at all 4 corners of the monster. Since this is not technically an attack, I don't think it would remove the fecal salve, and chances are the King's Man has less health than your group's total survival. Not sure if this would actually work, I don't have any of my cards in front of me.


Wouldn't work, for one only the owner of a given tactics card can use it unless it specifies otherwise, which this one AFAIR doesn't (so the KM would have to have less health than THAT character's survival) AND many of the tac cards are single use only (not sure if that's true for this one), for another you'd still end up with one character stuck in the KM's blind spot, which would trigger his base attack against that guy and shove whoevever's opposite to that one off of the dude (because he takes his backwards jump, which would knock back that guy... although I'm not 100% certain whether that would cause a bash too in that case... Without bash he could just run back up to the KM...)
 
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that Matt
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https://boardgamegeek.com/forum/421590/kingdom-death-monster...
 
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Emmit Svenson
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This is not a workable strategy for wounding the King's Man, not unless you have some way to reliably autowound, such as a red savior with spidicules katars. But it is a solid strategy for getting King's Step on all four of your survivors before engaging. Dried Acanthus makes it a little less of a crapshoot.
 
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