Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design

Subject: How hidden should ones identity be ?? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Maycent Y
Singapore
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey guys, my friends and i have been doing this social deduction and dueling "party" style game.

Basically,everyone is split into 2 factions, shadow and rebel, and nobody knows whose their ally or enemy.Of course, you are not allowed to reveal yours.Every turn, players will take turn to duel with a chosen opponent and the winner will get a point card while the loser will take a hit to their hp (5hp each)

The only way to know one's faction is to use either a reveal card which will allow you to look at 1 person's faction(only 3 in the deck)or by killing other players. The dead will reveal their faction.

The game ends when either 1 faction is eliminated or when all the point cards are used up.

Problem is, for a games above 4 players, it gets abit hard to guess at the start as everyone is clueless and various public play test have suggested that we should provide some sort of clue.

What do you guys think ? Though it kinda drift off from out initial style...

Afew ways we can think of to give hints were:

A)At the beggining, the leader of shadow faction will immediately be reveal. The leader will start with 6 health instead of 7 and killing him will end the game as well.

B)1/3 or half of the players will start will a reveal card on their hand which are deal out randomly.

Demon Espionage
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Lennert
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In Werewolf, you can glean clues about the players' identities (at least in theory) just from watching their behavior, because werewolves and villagers are in asymmetrical positions and therefore have a reason to behave differently. (Specifically, the werewolves have to pretend to be villagers because the villagers have less information but greater numbers.)

It sounds like your game puts the two teams in equivalent positions, which I imagine makes it pretty much impossible to make any deductions from player behavior. Someone acting nervous, or aggressive, or even being caught in a lie doesn't inherently tell you anything about which team they're on, because both teams have equal reasons to do any of those things. You can't even tell who their allies are based on who they choose to fight or not fight, because they are just as clueless about their allies as you are.

Someone has to know something or else the game is just random.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Metäl Warrior
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Perhaps provide a clue, but not a definitive one.

For example, you have four players, two in each faction. Put four shadow tokens and two rebel tokens into shadow pouch, and two shadow tokens and four rebel tokens to the rebel pouch. Each player draws three tokens from the pouch of their faction in secret (e.g. player puts both pouches under the table, and only draws from their faction's pouch). Everyone reveals their tokens. Statistically the shadow players are likely to have two shadow tokens and one rebel token - but not always.

Problem is when you're the second player to pull tokens, and by which pouch is empty you can tell what is the faction of the first player. To avoid this, you could put more tokens than necessary in each pouch so that it is harder to tell that.

Alternatively, if you have character cards, they could tell which tokens to pull. So out of five shadow character cards three could say to show two shadow tokens and one rebel token, but two to show 1 shadow token and 2 rebel tokens (essentially lying by design). The rebel cards the opposite. Play with the odds to balance things out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dimitri Sirenko
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
maycent wrote:
Hey guys, my friends and i have been doing this social deduction cum dueling "party" style game.

Basically,everyone is split into 2 factions, shadow and rebel, and nobody knows whose their ally or enemy.Of course, you are not allowed to reveal yours.Every turn, players will take turn to duel with a chosen opponent and the winner will get a point card while the loser will take a hit to their hp (5hp each)

The only way to know one's faction is to use either a reveal card which will allow you to look at 1 person's faction(only 3 in the deck)or by killing other players. The dead will reveal their faction.

The game ends when either 1 faction is eliminated or when all the point cards are used up.

Problem is, for a games above 4 players, it gets abit hard to guess at the start as everyone is clueless and various public play test have suggested that we should provide some sort of clue.

What do you guys think ? Though it kinda drift off from out initial style...

Afew ways we can think of to give hints were:

A)At the beggining, the leader of shadow faction will immediately be reveal. The leader will start with 6 health instead of 7 and killing him will end the game as well.

B)1/3 or half of the players will start will a reveal card on their hand which are deal out randomly.



i would look into Samurai Sword card game (i believe it is a reskin of Bang!). You can get some inspiration from that for sure.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dianne N.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Sounds kind of like Shadow Hunters, you might want to look into how they handle this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Sonora
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
maycent wrote:
cum dueling "party"


Phrasing!

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sturv Tafvherd
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You can also try Two Rooms and a Boom. That game is all about how much you reveal. I think it may be proof that you don't need to have "hints" or mandatory reveals. I've played at least one game where I pretended to be on the opposing side; and got a few others to believe me
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phillip Harpring
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Shadow Hunters largely deals with the issue through their version of reveal cards. They're not too difficult to get, but they don't always give perfect information back since there can be a neutral faction in the mix. The neat thing about that and the OP's option B is that they give the people with the reveal cards opportunity to bluff about their own faction, potentially convincing players to attack their allies. Shadow Hunters also gives players special abilities once they reveal their identity, creating tension between wanting to use your ability, but not become an easy target for the other faction.

Option A is sort of similar to Bang! where the sheriff is outed from the start, and people's behavior towards that player is what allows everyone to make deductions about their faction. The way it sounds like your game is currently structured, though, wouldn't make for that to be a very interesting dynamic (Bang! has a third faction in the mix: the renegade). Anyone wanting to duel the shadow leader would quickly be labelled a rebel, and anyone that didn't choose them would be a shadow. If you don't want to add a third faction, you would need to provide some reason for rebels to not immediately gang up on the shadow leader. Like maybe have the leader's power scale to how many other shadows are left alive.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerry
United States
Graham
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HaNd_SoLo wrote:
maycent wrote:
cum dueling "party"


Phrasing!



I was thinking 'this is one game I don't wanna play'
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carel Teijgeler
Netherlands
Vlaardingen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Laporbo wrote:
HaNd_SoLo wrote:
maycent wrote:
cum dueling "party"


Phrasing!



I was thinking 'this is one game I don't wanna play'

Not even solo? whistle
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
guy
Wallis and Futuna
Grand Bois Du Nord
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some math
Assuming the factions are equally populated (half of the players in each faction), then some simple math should help.

You say 3 reveal cards are ok for 4 players. There are 6 possible ways to distribute 4 players among 2 EQUALLY-POPULATED factions.

So it looks like you need to follow this chart:

# of players ... # faction distributions ... # of reveal cards
4 ................ 6 .......................... 3
5 ................ 10 ......................... 5
6 ................ 15 ......................... 7
7 ................ 21 ......................... 10
8 ................ 28 ......................... 14

If the factions are ARBUTRARILY-POPULATED (between 0 and all players in one faction), then the math is even easier since each added player DOUBLES the number of possible distributions (and should double the number of reveal cards).

Is this useful to you?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Lennert
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
professorguy wrote:
You say 3 reveal cards are ok for 4 players. There are 6 possible ways to distribute 4 players among 2 EQUALLY-POPULATED factions.

So it looks like you need to follow this chart:

And why would you want the number of reveal cards to be proportional to the number of possible distributions?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Sonora
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
anijunk wrote:
Laporbo wrote:
HaNd_SoLo wrote:
maycent wrote:
cum dueling "party"


Phrasing!



I was thinking 'this is one game I don't wanna play'

Not even solo? whistle


Could you? It's not a "party" until... whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leigh Shepherd
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ratehr than just having one role, everyone draws maybe 3 cards, each with a set number of HP, once you reach the level above the max card, you have to destroy one card and reveal, discarding that much damage at the same time


If you have 2 shadow cards, you would get rid of your rebel card first (maybe!) or you might want to keep your options open and destroy the lowest value shadow, so you could switch sides later on to be in the winning team? Of course, if you ahve 3 shadow cards, you will have to destroy a shadow - good luck convincing everone esle you arent a rebel!

Not sure that doesnt make it more confusing to tell who is who, but mught add another layer of strategy
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maycent Y
Singapore
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HaNd_SoLo wrote:
anijunk wrote:
Laporbo wrote:
HaNd_SoLo wrote:
maycent wrote:
cum dueling "party"


Phrasing!



I was thinking 'this is one game I don't wanna play'

Not even solo? whistle


Could you? It's not a "party" until... whistle


Haha, excuse the phrasing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maycent Y
Singapore
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everybody for the suggestions. We will scrutinize these games and see how we can improve!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Folsom
United States
Wilmore
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
For what to reveal, see how Two Rooms and a Boom does it. You can choose to only color reveal or show full card, you can also say "I can't reveal because I'm the shy guy" but really maybe you're not the shy guy!
For team and figuring out who you're with, check out The Castle of the Devil which most people haven't heard of, but is pretty fun.
Maybe even something like Good Cop Bad Cop
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Geruntho
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Check out Blood Bound, they have a very similar premise and I think they did a decent job of implementing it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Breckenridge
United States
Richmond
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let the winner of the duel decide whether the loser either takes a point of damage or reveals his faction to the winner.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.