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Derek B
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When drawing a shadow card that has a burgle effect is this also considered to be a shadow effect ?
I am asking in reference to Balins ability to cancel a shadow effect

Thank you
 
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Robin Munn

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Unfortunately, the answer is no, and Balin won't be able to cancel it. The definition of "shadow effect" on page 11 of the rulebook is "anything below the shadow effect symbol" (that's the symbol that looks like a line across the page with a skull in the middle of the symbol). None of the cards with Burgle effects have the shadow effect symbol on them, so none of them have a shadow effect. And Balin's ability only cancels a shadow effect, not a shadow card. So in the case of a card with a Burgle effect being dealt as a shadow card, Balin cannot cancel it, and Smaug the Magnificent is going to make an additional attack.

To avoid Smaug's additional attack, you're going to have to get rid of his shadow card, not cancel its shadow effect. And since Smaug the Magificent is immune to player card effects, I don't think you'll be able to -- because that means you can't use an effect that requires choosing or targeting him, and (to my reading) all shadow-card-discarding effects target an enemy and discard that enemy's shadow card. The text of Shadows Give Way looks promising -- "You must use resources from 3 different heroes' pools to pay for this card. Action: Discard each shadow card from each enemy in play." -- but I don't think it works either. Because to resolve "each enemy in play", you have to target each enemy in turn, and immune enemies cannot be targeted. If the card was phrased as "discard every shadow card in play", then that would have bypassed enemy immunity -- but as it's phrased, I believe you could not discard the shadow card from Smaug the Magnificent even with Shadows Give Way.
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Dale Stephenson
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Immunity doesn't extend to shadow cards (except for the saga Balrog), so I've thought the shadow discarders were targetting the shadow, not the enemy, and would therefore work. There's a thread here on the question:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/91531-smaug-a...

So a long time ago (the answer was "old" as of 6 Oct 2013), Caleb ruled that "Dawn Take You all" would work on Smaug's shadow (and prevent the riddle from being revealed to trigger another attack), and by extension would make all other shadow-discarding cards work.

Is there a more recent and contradictory ruling?
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Derek B
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Thanks for your thorough answer I appreciate it !
 
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Robin Munn

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dalestephenson wrote:

So a long time ago (the answer was "old" as of 6 Oct 2013), Caleb ruled that "Dawn Take You all" would work on Smaug's shadow (and prevent the riddle from being revealed to trigger another attack), and by extension would make all other shadow-discarding cards work.

Is there a more recent and contradictory ruling?


None that I'm aware of. I answered the way I did because I wasn't aware of that ruling by Caleb; thanks for correcting me.

So something like Rider of the Mark would work, because it discards the shadow card. It requires an "enemy you are engaged with", but Smaug the Magnificent counts: he "is considered to be engaged with the first player", and FAQ entry 1.50 clarifies that this counts for effects like Rider of the Mark. (If you're considered to be engaged, anything that requires "an engaged enemy" counts, but anything that triggers on "after you engage an enemy / an enemy engages you" won't trigger.) Other cards that would work are Dawn Take You All (as you mentioned), Shadows Give Way, and Armored Destrier.

But one card that I'm not sure of is Staff of Lebethron, because it seems to me that it specifically targets the enemy: "Response: After attached hero exhausts to defend an attack from an enemy with engagement cost higher than your threat, exhaust Staff of Lebethron to discard a shadow card from that enemy." So I thought that Staff of Lebethron would be blocked by Smaug's immunity. However, after seeing the other rulings, I'm suddenly unsure about that. If you're still reading this thread, what's your thinking about the Staff of Lebethron and immune enemies?
 
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Dale Stephenson
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I think Staff works, because it again is targeting the shadow card, not the enemy. Of course, that makes Staff the bomb against this quest, since both versions of Smaug have 50 engagement. Doesn't work so well against Shadow & Flame, though!
 
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