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Subject: Release date? rss

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Glenn Kahley
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Does anyone know when this game is going to be released? It seems as if it was really close but then fell of the red planet.
 
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Jason Brown
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kahley wrote:
Does anyone know when this game is going to be released? It seems as if it was really close but then fell of the red planet.

Ignacy said it won't be ready for Essen, so I'm guessing 1Q17.
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James Mathias
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
kahley wrote:
Does anyone know when this game is going to be released? It seems as if it was really close but then fell of the red planet.

Ignacy said it won't be ready for Essen, so I'm guessing 1Q17.


I'm betting GenCon 2017 or Essen 2017 if not even later. He spoke about it not being ready at all, not just for Essen and that he wants it to be the best game.
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Glenn Kahley
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jmathias wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
kahley wrote:
Does anyone know when this game is going to be released? It seems as if it was really close but then fell of the red planet.

Ignacy said it won't be ready for Essen, so I'm guessing 1Q17.


I'm betting GenCon 2017 or Essen 2017 if not even later. He spoke about it not being ready at all, not just for Essen and that he wants it to be the best game.

Thanks for the update.
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Kevin B. Smith
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
kahley wrote:
Does anyone know when this game is going to be released? It seems as if it was really close but then fell of the red planet.

Ignacy said it won't be ready for Essen, so I'm guessing 1Q17.

Specifically, in his recent blog post "The opposite", he said "I'll release it when it's done."
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Andrew Walmsley
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Dare I suggest that if they released it soon then it would hit sales of the new version of Robinson Crusoe? Just saying...
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Pasquale Cirone
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tigerwalms wrote:
Dare I suggest that if they released it soon then it would hit sales of the new version of Robinson Crusoe? Just saying...


That was my guess. No way would I put in effort on updating RC and then put out another game that'll cannibalize it's sales.
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Jason Long
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Or maybe, just maybe, this one's being upgraded to Legacy status, and he wants to get it juuuuust right.

A fellow can dream, right?
 
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sinnylong wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe, this one's being upgraded to Legacy status, and he wants to get it juuuuust right.

A fellow can dream, right?


I really hope it's not Legacy.
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Jonathan
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I'm sure the glut of other Mars-themed games helped with the decision.
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M.C.Crispy
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79strat wrote:
sinnylong wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe, this one's being upgraded to Legacy status, and he wants to get it juuuuust right.

A fellow can dream, right?


I really hope it's not Legacy.
Depends what you mean by legacy. It certainly appears that decisions/events that occur in early scenarios will be remembered (by the App) in future scenarios. Does that make it unacceptably Legacy to you? Or is your distaste related to physical aspects of the Legacy "system"?
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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mccrispy wrote:
Depends what you mean by legacy. It certainly appears that decisions/events that occur in early scenarios will be remembered (by the App) in future scenarios. Does that make it unacceptably Legacy to you? Or is your distaste related to physical aspects of the Legacy "system"?

To me, "campaign" games have effects that persist across sessions, while "legacy" games include "one-way modifications" (aka destruction) of the game components. I *really* hope we retain some distinction between those two. I'm fine if we come up with words other than legacy and campaign, but let's retain the distinction somehow.

It worries me that a lot of people talking about Fabled Fruit are using the word "legacy" when I think they mean "campaign".
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M.C.Crispy
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peakhope wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Depends what you mean by legacy. It certainly appears that decisions/events that occur in early scenarios will be remembered (by the App) in future scenarios. Does that make it unacceptably Legacy to you? Or is your distaste related to physical aspects of the Legacy "system"?

To me, "campaign" games have effects that persist across sessions, while "legacy" games include "one-way modifications" (aka destruction) of the game components. I *really* hope we retain some distinction between those two. I'm fine if we come up with words other than legacy and campaign, but let's retain the distinction somehow.

It worries me that a lot of people talking about Fabled Fruit are using the word "legacy" when I think they mean "campaign".
Pretty sure that I don't agree with any of your comments. I don't think that (a) we've clearly defined any of those terms, (b) there are absolute hard boundaries between all these labels, or (c) games didn't have these features before these labels were "invented".
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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mccrispy wrote:
Pretty sure that I don't agree with any of your comments. I don't think that (a) we've clearly defined any of those terms, (b) there are absolute hard boundaries between all these labels, or (c) games didn't have these features before these labels were "invented".

I'm absolutely OK not agreeing. But I think there's a pretty hard boundary between "resettable" and "permanently modified". The first time I ever heard "legacy", it was Risk Legacy, and the distinguishing feature was the permanence. Pandemic Legacy followed. So for me, it seems clear what "legacy" means. Campaigns have been around a long time, so that word seems pretty established.

Like I said, I'm not married to those words. But whatever terms we come up choose, I want one that means resettable, and a different one that means permanent.
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peakhope wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Pretty sure that I don't agree with any of your comments. I don't think that (a) we've clearly defined any of those terms, (b) there are absolute hard boundaries between all these labels, or (c) games didn't have these features before these labels were "invented".

I'm absolutely OK not agreeing. But I think there's a pretty hard boundary between "resettable" and "permanently modified". The first time I ever heard "legacy", it was Risk Legacy, and the distinguishing feature was the permanence. Pandemic Legacy followed. So for me, it seems clear what "legacy" means. Campaigns have been around a long time, so that word seems pretty established.

Like I said, I'm not married to those words. But whatever terms we come up choose, I want one that means resettable, and a different one that means permanent.


I agree that there is a difference between campaign and legacy games, and that that difference is worth being upheld.
However, I don't think that the difference is whether you destroy or write on game components. People are of course right to say you have to play RL and PL that way, but I don't think that is why everyone was so excited about them. Rather, we were excited about legacy games because they enable us to alter games in a way that campaign games don't, that no game (that I know of) has before.

In a campaign game, each player alters their own player avatar. That can be items and character stats in an rpg, or we could also look at civ games and have, for example, power-granting buildings in the player's capitol carry over from game to game until they are destroyed.
The point is, that each player has something that represents them in the game, and they can look at that and say "yes, this is mine, I have individualized this avatar over many games to suit me". (btw, does anyone know of a campaign-civ-game? I now somewhat want to play that example)

Legacy games otoh go a step further. They may well include customization of player avatars, but what defines them is that they also include customization of the game system itself. In the rpg, a storm could lay waste to an area and change the board, or maybe the source of magic is rediscovered, opening up completely new skill trees. In the civ game maybe gunpowder is discovered, completely altering the way conflicts are resolved from here on out.
The result is that the group as a whole can look at the game and say "this way to play, this set of rules and circumstances is ours, we shaped this game to fit us."

In summary, I think the difference between legacy and campaign exists, but I believe it lies in what is altered, not how it is altered.
Of course this is only my opinion, but you can quickly test it yourself. Imagine two games: One only alters the individual player characters, but does so by writing on and stickering the player board. The other game alters entire sets of rules, but to do so, players take the rule card and slide it into the pre-cut slot in the rule book or flip over sections of the modular board. Now, which one has more in common with what makes RL and PL so special?
 
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Jason Long
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Didn't mean to start something here, but I am happy to see healthy, friendly debate. I just meant that I really hope it's not simply a re-skin (with an app thrown in). I want there to be something else in there, whether it be called legacy or campaign. Although, RC was already almost a campaign game, what with the different scenarios. So I guess it's the character leveling and possible modifications over time that I'm hoping for (not necessarily "destruction" of the game itself).

I should be clear here: I've never played, and don't own, any Legacy (note the capital L) games. Never liked Risk, and by the time Pandemic went Legacy, the game was already a very tired machine for me. I guess I was hoping that a game I still love would try on the whole legacy idea, so I could give it a shot.
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M.C.Crispy
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peakhope wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Pretty sure that I don't agree with any of your comments. I don't think that (a) we've clearly defined any of those terms, (b) there are absolute hard boundaries between all these labels, or (c) games didn't have these features before these labels were "invented".

I'm absolutely OK not agreeing. But I think there's a pretty hard boundary between "resettable" and "permanently modified". The first time I ever heard "legacy", it was Risk Legacy, and the distinguishing feature was the permanence. Pandemic Legacy followed. So for me, it seems clear what "legacy" means. Campaigns have been around a long time, so that word seems pretty established.

Like I said, I'm not married to those words. But whatever terms we come up choose, I want one that means resettable, and a different one that means permanent.
Fable is a resettable Legacy. That's the point and one of the reasons that I disagreed with your response. When you say permanence that's a pretty broad definition, permanence of what, exactly?

A word that means permanent; permanency of what?
A word that means resettable; resettable what?

Are all Legacy games Campaigns? What is a Campaign? I'm not sure that there are universal, agreed upon definitions of these terms that have clear boundaries. To me they are all just general indicators of what I might expect but not exact descriptors.
 
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David desJardins
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peakhope wrote:
To me, "campaign" games have effects that persist across sessions, while "legacy" games include "one-way modifications" (aka destruction) of the game components. I *really* hope we retain some distinction between those two. I'm fine if we come up with words other than legacy and campaign, but let's retain the distinction somehow.


Let's say I write a story on paper. And you write a story on a chalkboard. My story can't be changed, you can only get more paper and write a new one. The chalkboard can be erased and reused. But that's a very superficial distinction. You wouldn't distinguish between two types of literature, the literature that's written on paper and literature that's written on chalkboards. Similarly, it makes little sense, to me, to categorize games based on such details of physical implementation. It's what it's like to play the game, that matters.
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Kevin B. Smith
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I find the distinction between "modifying characters" and "modifying the world" to be interesting. Not sure I'm on board with that, but it's a plausible definition of legacy.

DaviddesJ wrote:
Similarly, it makes little sense, to me, to categorize games based on such details of physical implementation. It's what it's like to play the game, that matters.

Given unlimited funds and no worries about waste in the world, I would agree. In my reality, those implementation details remain really important.
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David desJardins
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peakhope wrote:
Given unlimited funds and no worries about waste in the world, I would agree. In my reality, those implementation details remain really important.


Of course it's important to any customer how expensive a game is or what type of components it uses. But, even so, BGG doesn't classify games based on cost, but based on how they play.

I also kind of doubt that for most people, "Can I only play this game 20 times, or 100 times?" really ranks very high as far as getting value for money. Because most games that are bought end up getting played far less than 20 times. So, even if we were ranking games by value per dollar, the actual enjoyability and reception of the game would be a much more important input than whether the game components get used up or modified in some way.
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Tim Hicks
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DaviddesJ wrote:
peakhope wrote:
To me, "campaign" games have effects that persist across sessions, while "legacy" games include "one-way modifications" (aka destruction) of the game components. I *really* hope we retain some distinction between those two. I'm fine if we come up with words other than legacy and campaign, but let's retain the distinction somehow.


Let's say I write a story on paper. And you write a story on a chalkboard. My story can't be changed, you can only get more paper and write a new one. The chalkboard can be erased and reused. But that's a very superficial distinction. You wouldn't distinguish between two types of literature, the literature that's written on paper and literature that's written on chalkboards. Similarly, it makes little sense, to me, to categorize games based on such details of physical implementation. It's what it's like to play the game,


I would argue that analogy doesn't really paint the whole picture though. The destruction of the components has a shock value that often distracts from the very real difference of a game like Pandemic Legacy from what might have traditionally been called a campaign game, and that is repeatability. I am not talking about number of total sessions or anything to do with value for money, I am talking about a fixed linear storyline that, while it may sway slightly from side to side, can never be left.

For me, the beauty of Robinson Crusoe (and the reason, in my opinion, why it is vastly superior to Pandemic Legacy) is the fact it is made of a set of entirely unique chapters which are bonded by a theme. Most importantly, any one of those chapters can be failed (often catastrophically). I see no reason that these chapters can't be linked within a over-arching plot, with the option to replay them with different results - a save point of sorts.

Imagine a game as hard as RC. Imagine you've failed a scenario 4 or 5 times, but then you crack it. Imagine the game says "ok, you have the option to try again, or to continue. If you continue, you've got this great new skill/tool, but remember you've also broken a particular piece of equipment/gained an ailment".

Do you try again? Do you take the win?

This approach would also allow the addition of extra chapters, at any point of the plot. It would allow for additional depth or branching of the plot at a later date. Fan modding even!

That would be SO much more than any existing game carrying the Legacy trademark. That would be a true "campaign" game.

...but if it isn't all that, I'll probably still give it a go.
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David desJardins
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T1M1X wrote:
The destruction of the components has a shock value that often distracts from the very real difference of a game like Pandemic Legacy from what might have traditionally been called a campaign game, and that is repeatability.


So you're agreeing with me. The essence of the "legacy" game isn't whether you destroy or alter the components, that's a fairly superficial issue. It's something much more substantive than that, about what playing the game is like.

Quote:
That would be SO much more than any existing game carrying the Legacy trademark. That would be a true "campaign" game.


Well, what you would like more I would like less. Fortunately, everyone gets to have their own preferences.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
T1M1X wrote:
The destruction of the components has a shock value that often distracts from the very real difference of a game like Pandemic Legacy from what might have traditionally been called a campaign game, and that is repeatability.


So you're agreeing with me. The essence of the "legacy" game isn't whether you destroy or alter the components, that's a fairly superficial issue. It's something much more substantive than that, about what playing the game is like.


I agree it's a superficial issue in terms of rating the comparative quality of Legacy vs a game such as RC (on which this is allegedly based), but I do not agree that it cannot be held up as a delineating factor when categorizing games. In fact, as you previously brought up BGG categories, I would point out that the BGG Legacy definition specifically mentions the irreversible nature of those games and also states that this is often brought about via destruction or marking of components.
My point was that this destruction of components is simply a distraction from the fact that the real issue of repeatability with P:L is that, despite all its stickers and tearing, your decisions ultimately are without value.

I hope First Martians has a little more meat on the bone (as did RC).

DaviddesJ wrote:
T1M1X wrote:
That would be SO much more than any existing game carrying the Legacy trademark. That would be a true "campaign" game.


Well, what you would like more I would like less. Fortunately, everyone gets to have their own preferences.


On that we agree.

 
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T1M1X wrote:
In fact, as you previously brought up BGG categories, I would point out that the BGG Legacy definition specifically mentions the irreversible nature of those games and also states that this is often brought about via destruction or marking of components.


https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/25404/legacy

This is just a wiki, anyone can edit it and it only represents the view of whomever edited it last.

That said, it doesn't say that a game has to have physical changes to components to be a "legacy" game. Just that what happens when people play the game irreversibly changes the game for those players.

Quote:
My point was that this destruction of components is simply a distraction from the fact that the real issue of repeatability with P:L is that, despite all its stickers and tearing, your decisions ultimately are without value.


If the game is highly rated, that is proof that many people find value in playing it. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't mean it lacks value.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
T1M1X wrote:
In fact, as you previously brought up BGG categories, I would point out that the BGG Legacy definition specifically mentions the irreversible nature of those games and also states that this is often brought about via destruction or marking of components.


https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/25404/legacy

This is just a wiki, anyone can edit it and it only represents the view of whomever edited it last.


Well, as I said, it was you that held up BGG definitions as being somewhat definitive.

DaviddesJ wrote:
Quote:
My point was that this destruction of components is simply a distraction from the fact that the real issue of repeatability with P:L is that, despite all its stickers and tearing, your decisions ultimately are without value.


If the game is highly rated, that is proof that many people find value in playing it. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't mean it lacks value.


Once again, that's not my argument. The game has shaken up the industry, helped create a new genre, made a lot of money for Z-Man and it's developers, and most importantly it has given a lot of people a great deal of pleasure. Objective and subjective arguments are not the same. Neither are debates about rule implementations and popularity.

The point remains; decisions made during a season of Pandemic have greater effect on the components than on its story arc. Subjectively, this means that I feel the game is inferior to First Martians predecessor, and why I am glad it is based on RC and not P:L.

 
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