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Subject: Woods and vehicles rss

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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

I've been wanting to post this for some time. Basically, the allowance or restriction for vehicular units entering and deploying in woods hexes.

'Vehicular' units may only enter 'woods' hexes through a non-solid hex-side or on a road through a solid hex-side. Vehicular units may not 'deploy' in hexes that have all six hex-sides that are 'solid', with or without a road. Vehicular units may only enter hexes with six solid hex-sides on a road and exist there in a road movement status.
Only non-vehicular units may move through a woods solid hex-side. Only non-vehicular units may deploy in woods hex that has six solid hex-sides.

I look forward to your thoughts and feedback on this subject.

Dennis
 
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Bill Eldard
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What is your rationale for this modification?
 
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Steve
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Dennis, PB is a game more than a simulation. As such there are certain scenarios or Situations that require those green hexside rules.

If you want to make it a simulation then you would need to get an idea of how big the trees in Russia are or were, how far apart they grew and how big a tree a tank can just drive over and mash flat.

I have 3 thoughts:
. . 1] Tanks and trucks [& wagons, etc.] are different. There might be 2 categories.
. . . . a] Wheeled vehicles that use the old rule. [Halftracks here?]
. . . . b] Tracked vehicles that get a relaxed rule.
. . 2] The edges of the woods must be easier to move through or else tanks and trucks could not enter them at all. All vehicles or just tracked veh. might be allowed to move just 1 hex [cost all MF] over a green hexside that ends in a clear area of a hex. Only the smallest guns could be towed through a green hexside.
. . 3] Tracked vehicles might be allowed to move over all green hexsides if they a accompanied by an Inf. unit to scout and find a way around the larger trees and the tanks just flatten the smaller trees.
. . . . a] This would cost all of their MF.
. . . . b] It might also require that they enter the hex [where they start that turn] from an adjacent hex or just sit there for a turn while the Inf. scouts out a route.
. . 4] It should be possible to have Situations that return to the original rules in part or in total.

........................................................................
Also, the DF of vehicles should be reduced in woods when they are attacked with CAT. They would be reduced less if they were with Inf. though.

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Peter Lloyd
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Dennis, that is largely the rule from Panzer Leader. It's a good rule. Something that always bugged me was how easily vehicles could move into the woods. Since vehicles always had problems moving in forested areas, I thought a higher movement cost was in order.

Did you think about blocking roads through the green hexsides wrecks?
 
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Robert McConnell
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Hey Dennis, I have a question to your question. What is the penalty to vehicles on a road inside of a woods hex with six solid woods hex-sides? I am presuming an additional -1 DRM for indirect fire or close assault against them, but it could be even worse. One thing to consider is the vehicles would pull off the road side as much as possible in staggered intervals if halted in such a hex. The "beauty" of such a hex is overhead cover from enemy (and friendly!) aircraft attack/observation. It's not really a defensive position but more of a hide position prior to reaching the assembly area or other jumping off point (either for attack or defense). I think that is really why vehicles would enter/stay in this type of hex at all.

Bob

dgk196 wrote:
Hello...

I've been wanting to post this for some time. Basically, the allowance or restriction for vehicular units entering and deploying in woods hexes.

'Vehicular' units may only enter 'woods' hexes through a non-solid hex-side or on a road through a solid hex-side. Vehicular units may not 'deploy' in hexes that have all six hex-sides that are 'solid', with or without a road. Vehicular units may only enter hexes with six solid hex-sides on a road and exist there in a road movement status.
Only non-vehicular units may move through a woods solid hex-side. Only non-vehicular units may deploy in woods hex that has six solid hex-sides.

I look forward to your thoughts and feedback on this subject.

Dennis
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to post your respones. I guess at this point I should try to explain my position. The first thing will be to note that 'solid' woods hex-sides basically block line of sight and indicate restricted movement, or at least should. Anyway, my position was for one type of woods, in terms of movement cost, spotting, attacking and so on.

For Vehicles, even tanks, a woods can present many problems. These can be posing difficult to move into or through because of terrain aspects. Second the limited visibility associated with some vehicles becomes even worse in terrain with restricted visibility when within such terrain.

So, rather than get into variances of terrain aspects and vehicle aspects, I choose to just restrict the movement through 'solid woods hex-sides'. Now some vehicles may be able to 'plow' their way through such terrain, given enough time, but they cannot deploy as a unit and conduct operations as a unit. And since this is a 'unit' game, there seemed little point in allowing these to conduct activities as if they where in 'clear' terrain. As to deploying along side a road passing through such terrain. I'll leave that up to the individuals to sort that out, and I look forward to your idea's on the subject.

Thanks for taking the time to listen, I look forward to your responses.

Dennis
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Steve
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dgk196 wrote:
Hello...

Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to post your respones. I guess at this point I should try to explain my position. The first thing will be to note that 'solid' woods hex-sides basically block line of sight and indicate restricted movement, or at least should. Anyway, my position was for one type of woods, in terms of movement cost, spotting, attacking and so on.

For Vehicles, even tanks, a woods can present many problems. These can be posing difficult to move into or through because of terrain aspects. Second the limited visibility associated with some vehicles becomes even worse in terrain with restricted visibility when within such terrain.

So, rather than get into variances of terrain aspects and vehicle aspects, I choose to just restrict the movement through 'solid woods hex-sides'. Now some vehicles may be able to 'plow' their way through such terrain, given enough time, but they cannot deploy as a unit and conduct operations as a unit. And since this is a 'unit' game, there seemed little point in allowing these to conduct activities as if they where in 'clear' terrain. As to deploying along side a road passing through such terrain. I'll leave that up to the individuals to sort that out, and I look forward to your idea's on the subject.

Thanks for taking the time to listen, I look forward to your responses.

Dennis

So you wave your hands and talk about how restricted vision restricts tanks in woods, but you don't even mention my suggestion that the DF of tanks in woods hexes be less when they attacked by Inf. using CAT.

I disagree that just stopping tanks from moving over green hexsides restricts them in a realstic way in terms of combat. Maybe tanks should not be able to attack over green hexsides even when adjacent also. When CAT'd in a woods or town(?) their DF should be reduced.

 
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Robert McConnell
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Okay, this is absolutely true. Dense woods (which is what those green hex sides represent) channels vehicles. They cannot really support each other unless they are lucky and they are moving through a less dense patch of said dense woods hex- but statistically unlikely. Think: Huertgen Forest in World War 2. I have some insight into tanks "mashing trees flat"- not likely. Tank commanders are very reluctant to stress the transmissions and drive trains of their vehicles, because they don't want them breaking when they need them most (i.e. relocating to another fighting position). Tankers are very risk averse when it comes to obstacles of any kind. Steve's observation about infantry guiding vehicles through woods is actually pretty close to what happens, except it is dismounted tankers who do the ground guiding as most infantrymen are not familiar with sizes and weights of various armor vehicles. The exception to that might be Panzergrenadiers who work extensively with armor and "know the ropes". My two cents.

Bob

dgk196 wrote:
Now some vehicles may be able to 'plow' their way through such terrain, given enough time, but they cannot deploy as a unit and conduct operations as a unit. And since this is a 'unit' game, there seemed little point in allowing these to conduct activities as if they where in 'clear' terrain. As to deploying along side a road passing through such terrain. I'll leave that up to the individuals to sort that out, and I look forward to your idea's on the subject.
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Now, that is some very interesting feedback... its very good to get input from those that have experience on the subject at hand. Since much of what is discussed on a website such as this, is very often the opinions expressed that are conjecture at best. So, once again... thank you for sharing your knowledge on the subject. As this will allow all that are interested, to speak to the subject with a better understanding.

There are of course, various other 'circumstances' that would, or could, contribute to making 'woods' unpassable for vehicles. Such as 'broken ground'. That is to say uneven terrain that may or may not result in a vehicle being 'high-centered'. That is to say... a variation in the terrain would result in a shift to one or the other side of a vehicle. Maybe not so much of a problem with an especially built off-road vehicle, but which might result in a 'stuck' vehicle.

If for some reason... a vehicle gets 'high-centered' it can lose all traction on one side or the other. This means you are 'stuck'. Another situation is you have run over a tree of sufficient size that would jam under the hull reducing the traction of the vehicle. This may or may not stop the vehicle in its tracks (pardon the pun), but it may cause the vehicle to have to be extricated from the situation. All of these things, and more, add up to essentially terrain that cannot be traveresed by vehicular 'units' in this game.

I look forward to your responses.

Dennis
 
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Robert McConnell
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Dennis, you have hit the mark: traction. Losing traction on one side usually= "throwing track"- either the track "walks off" to the outside of the vehicle or (far worse) jams inside the road wheels and the hull requiring the crew to get out, disconnect track links and end connectors or track pins (depends on track type) and hook up a rope or cable and everyone man-hauls the track into place. Not fun.
Depending on terrain mix- subsurface limestone, granite, etc. with a few inches of clay or mud on top make for a very bad combination in that the track slides about the road wheels if the tension is not tight enough (see above: "walking off") and then it breaks when it hits the underlying rock layer. This is basically your tank commander's nightmare scenario. Woods can really exacerbate this problem if you come across this mixed terrain within a woods area with armored vehicles. I hope this doesn't sound like Throwing Track 101 (and it probably is), but this is why traversing woods is such a big deal to AFVs- lot's of "no-go" terrain in addition to the size of the trees. Hoping I have added to the discussion,

Bob

dgk196 wrote:
...uneven terrain that may or may not result in a vehicle being 'high-centered'. That is to say... a variation in the terrain would result in a shift to one or the other side of a vehicle. Maybe not so much of a problem with an especially built off-road vehicle, but which might result in a 'stuck' vehicle.

If for some reason... a vehicle gets 'high-centered' it can lose all traction on one side or the other. This means you are 'stuck'. Another situation is you have run over a tree of sufficient size that would jam under the hull reducing the traction of the vehicle. This may or may not stop the vehicle in its tracks (pardon the pun), but it may cause the vehicle to have to be extricated from the situation. All of these things, and more, add up to essentially terrain that cannot be traversed by vehicular 'units' in this game.

I look forward to your responses.

Dennis
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Thanks for your valuable insite on this subject. Having done some reading on the subject, I found an interesting aspect. It seems that both the Russians and the Germans used cut down trees for more than just reinforcing material or for burning.

Along the 'edge' of a wooded area they would cut down the trees and leave about a 2' high stump on the ground. Now, this could not be 'knocked over' as an intact tree could be. But, it could cause the vehicle to get 'hung-up' on the stump, stopping it in place. At which time it would have to be 'recovered'.

Apparently the reason for doing this along the 'edge' of a wooded area was not to stop the vehicles from going further into the woods, but to deny the vehicle from occupying the areas, for concealment, among the less dense woods. So, I think maybe there is room for consideration in not allowing 'vehicular' units to cross 'solid woods hexsides'. Of course there can be variations for 'less dense woods'. Such as requiring the expendeture of all of the units movement factors to enter a hex. Or for even less dense woods, one-half of the units movement factor. As for trucks...personally I would always restrict their movement through them. Or if you like alternatively, when 'towing' a unit.

Well, as always I look forward to your feedback.

Dennis
 
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Philip Hernandez
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Am I missing something here, or (except for the business about vehicles on a road in a hex surrounded by green hexsides being in a "road movement state") isn't that the existing rule concerning woods?

Phil
 
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