Steve
Thailand
flag msg tools
For 2000 years Christians have said that God is all knowing. They assumed that this means that he knows all about the past, all about the present and all about the future.

They assumed a 'clockwork' universe long before clocks were invented, so with perfect knowledge of the present, perfect knowledge of the future seemed reasonable.

This assumption has gotten them tied into logical knots when combined with God's other attributes.

Modern science has given them a way out of this tangle.

Will they embrace it? Can they see that it might help them a lot?

The Way Out is modern chaos theory, the "butterfly Effect" theory.

It says that only with perfect knowledge of the present; (knowledge about every particle and wave to an infinite number of decimal places) can you make really long term predictions about Physics. Biology is even harder to make long term predictions about. And the evolution of human culture is much harder than that.

Quantum Theory says that it is impossible to know everything about even 1 subatomic particle, let alone every particle in the universe. It also says that it is flatly impossible to predict when a subatomic particle [like a radioactive element's nucleus] will decay and in what direction the pieces will fly off in.

If Christians extended these impossibilities to what God could know about the present and didn't let God interfere [or should I say guide and correct?] too much then even God would not be able to make long term predictions about what will happen to humans on Earth. It might not even be possible for God to predict what a given person would think or say a minute from "now".

This would change a lot of Christian theology. For the better? I don't claim to know. I really think that it would change a lot of things though. One thing it would do is to explain why God seems to make mistakes sometimes. That is, it explains why God could change His mind and send Jesus to change the 'Law' and to die on the cross to 'save' our souls.

As an atheist, I'm not telling Christians what to do. I'm just offering an idea. What they do with it is up to them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
Re: Christians say that God is 'All Kentucky-Fried-wing-lover'. But are they sure what that means? No "sides"?
wow '"Butternuts!"..."Butterstuff!"..."Butterpats"!' I'd like to 'buy' a 'vowel', Pat Sajac. whistle
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve
Thailand
flag msg tools
Koldfoot wrote:
Oh yeah.

People everywhere are now rethinking their beliefs and you understand Christianity.

I have decided that Trolls like you need to just be ignored.

So, my response to certain people here will be to call them a Troll and leave it at that.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
Koldfoot wrote:
Oh yeah.

People everywhere are now rethinking their beliefs and you understand Christianity.
Steve1501 wrote:
I have decided that Trolls like you need to just be ignored.

So, my response to certain people here will be to call them a Troll and leave it at that.

"Way-out Modern-Hipster Chaos" EMBRACE itself "entangling tentacles" into 'crack of DOOM/Plumber' whichever appears! robot
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve1501 wrote:
For 2000 years Christians have said that God is all knowing. They assumed that this means that he knows all about the past, all about the present and all about the future.

They assumed a 'clockwork' universe long before clocks were invented, so with perfect knowledge of the present, perfect knowledge of the future seemed reasonable.

This assumption has gotten them tied into logical knots when combined with God's other attributes.

Modern science has given them a way out of this tangle.

Will they embrace it? Can they see that it might help them a lot?

The Way Out is modern chaos theory, the "butterfly Effect" theory.

It says that only with perfect knowledge of the present; (knowledge about every particle and wave to an infinite number of decimal places) can you make really long term predictions about Physics. Biology is even harder to make long term predictions about. And the evolution of human culture is much harder than that.

Quantum Theory says that it is impossible to know everything about even 1 subatomic particle, let alone every particle in the universe. It also says that it is flatly impossible to predict when a subatomic particle [like a radioactive element's nucleus] will decay and in what direction the pieces will fly off in.

If Christians extended these impossibilities to what God could know about the present and didn't let God interfere [or should I say guide and correct?] too much then even God would not be able to make long term predictions about what will happen to humans on Earth. It might not even be possible for God to predict what a given person would think or say a minute from "now".

This would change a lot of Christian theology. For the better? I don't claim to know. I really think that it would change a lot of things though. One thing it would do is to explain why God seems to make mistakes sometimes. That is, it explains why God could change His mind and send Jesus to change the 'Law' and to die on the cross to 'save' our souls.

As an atheist, I'm not telling Christians what to do. I'm just offering an idea. What they do with it is up to them.


That would change any prophecies or predictions. Instead , yahweh would have to actively intervene to make those things yahweh "predicted" happen.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel
United States
Santee
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd be curious what logical knots you think Christians have tied themselves into by believing what the Bible teaches on God's omniscience.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-omniscient.html


Quote:

God knows everything (1 John 3:20). He knows not only the minutest details of our lives but those of everything around us, for He mentions even knowing when a sparrow falls or when we lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30). Not only does God know everything that will occur until the end of history itself (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows our very thoughts, even before we speak forth (Psalm 139:4). He knows our hearts from afar; He even saw us in the womb (Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16). Solomon expresses this truth perfectly when he says, “For you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind” (1 Kings 8:39).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Steve1501 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Oh yeah.

People everywhere are now rethinking their beliefs and you understand Christianity.

I have decided that Trolls like you need to just be ignored.

So, my response to certain people here will be to call them a Troll and leave it at that.

That's the opposite of ignoring.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Science says man can't understand particles. So the answer is that God can't understand those particles either. Who gave this solution? Why, science! You know, the source that says there are things we can't understand.

So in his hubris, the OP says that the solution is to say that God has the same understanding as man instead of saying that man has the same understanding of God as we do of particles.

Science is about man's observation of the universe. Science just declared man's understanding to be limited. Now, rather than expanding the scope of what man cannot observe, the OP would say that we expand the scope of whose observation is limited.

Oh, and Democracytic.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve1501 wrote:


[Darth Vader breathing] The shudder is strong from this one. [/Darth Vader breathing]

Please read an actual introductory text on quantum mechanics and on chaos theory.

1. Yes individual measurements in QM are not predictable individually but they have a strictly weighted probability tending strongly in the aggregate to a strict expectation value. The strictly deterministic world of the macrocosmos arises from the statistical convergence of the quantum regime.

2. Chaos theory is the study and application of systems described by differential equations which are extremely sensitive to initial conditions. I'm not sure which such system you expect to be relevant in this case.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameCrossing wrote:
Science says man can't understand particles. So the answer is that God can't understand those particles either.….

No and no. It just doesn't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Badolato
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Science says man can't understand particles.


Where does it say that ?? What does that even mean ? I'm pretty sure you didn't read that in an actual science book.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Badolato
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Why, science! You know, the source that says there are things we can't understand.


Where does science say that ?? Of course there are topics and things that we as a species do not yet understand, but the advantage of science is that with applied effort we may indeed one day understand something more fully. As a system it has done quite well in advancing our knowledge of the universe around us.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
damiangerous wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Oh yeah.

People everywhere are now rethinking their beliefs and you understand Christianity.

I have decided that Trolls like you need to just be ignored.

So, my response to certain people here will be to call them a Troll and leave it at that.

That's the opposite of ignoring.
As with me he has to make sure that Koldie knows he is being ignored.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve
Thailand
flag msg tools
whac3 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:


[Darth Vader breathing] The shudder is strong from this one. [/Darth Vader breathing]

Please read an actual introductory text on quantum mechanics and on chaos theory.

1. Yes individual measurements in QM are not predictable individually but they have a strictly weighted probability tending strongly in the aggregate to a strict expectation value. The strictly deterministic world of the macrocosmos arises from the statistical convergence of the quantum regime.

2. Chaos theory is the study and application of systems described by differential equations which are extremely sensitive to initial conditions. I'm not sure which such system you expect to be relevant in this case.

You're not a Troll like 3 others who have responded already, so I' ll respond to you.

1] How does quantum uncertainty cause the future to be unpredictable?
. . One way is that Carbon 14 is a common part of organic molecules like DNA. Since it I not possible to predict when a C14 atom will decay, it is not possible to predict when and what mutations will occur as a result. Therefore it is not possible to predict how evolution will go.

2] How could chaos have effected Earth?
. . Science says that the Moon was formed by a collision of the Earth with a Mars size proto-planet. Chaos theory says that even then it was not possible to predict that that would happen because the 3 body problem is chaotic and unstable to some extent.
. . The Moon was important because of the effect of tides on the future of evolution.
. . The same can be said about the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.

These are just examples. Maybe not good ones. I hope that they give you an idea of how other examples can be found.

I mentioned the evolution of culture above. I contend that this is very chaotic and unpredictable. And, it may not even have deterministic equations that must be followed.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mo' crap exegesis from know-nothing atheists...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmb
Steve1501 wrote:
I mentioned the evolution of culture above. I contend that this is very chaotic and unpredictable. And, it may not even have deterministic equations that must be followed.



While in the book Guns, Germs, and Steel, the author doesn't necessarily say the development of human cultures could have been predicted, he does make a strong argument that it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that the cultures which originated in the Fertile Crescent of Mesopotamia would expand to eventually dominate large parts of the world, based on the tremendous advantages in resources they would come to possess and other factors. I am not in the camp that insists God knows every single detail of every single thing that has, is, or will ever happen, but if a human author can spot such a pattern, then God would certainly have had little trouble doing likewise and arranged his dealings with humans accordingly.

To put it roughly, God looking into the future is kind of like Superman and his super-hearing - he has to dial it down if he wants to do ordinary stuff, but can focus on it more when the need arises. God can know all the future possibilities and can look into the future to check on something that might intersect with his purpose, but he isn't always looking at future events, as since the future is always changing, that would likely just get way too noisy. When he sees a future event he wants to occur, he can make sure it happens as he saw it...like I said, putting it very roughly.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve1501 wrote:

Each individual interaction is not predictable but the net effect very much is. There is a range of possibilities but the more interactions one talks about in the process the narrower that range of possibilities becomes. At some point when the number of interactions is finite but large effectively only one result is possible anymore.

I think in the OP you're trying to reconcile divine foreknowledge and free will. That's a conversation we've had on this forum many times. I laud you for trying to take a different approach but I do think that approach fundamentally cannot do what you want it to do.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Pennsylvania
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
People are still talking about God?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Fox
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
Question everything.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As others have already pointed out, you can't disprove someone's belief system with science, they'll just continue to ignore common sense. The Christian god exists outside of science and can do things which violate the basic nature of the universe. He can know both the position and velocity of basic particles, he can know when they will decay, he knows all. He is also able to influence the universe through non scientific means.

Of course, for some strange reason, all the miracles that this god used to perform all the time have disappeared since science showed up to measure such things. Your view on what that means depends on whether you are willing to believe in something without any proof at all that violates all of the laws of nature.
1 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doesn't even have to be all that.

Just recognizing mankind's severe limitations in knowledge, abilities vs the transcendant is enough without all the rest of that.

Ie, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve
Thailand
flag msg tools
whac3 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:

Each individual interaction is not predictable but the net effect very much is. There is a range of possibilities but the more interactions one talks about in the process the narrower that range of possibilities becomes. At some point when the number of interactions is finite but large effectively only one result is possible anymore.

I think in the OP you're trying to reconcile divine foreknowledge and free will. That's a conversation we've had on this forum many times. I laud you for trying to take a different approach but I do think that approach fundamentally cannot do what you want it to do.

Actually free will was rather far down my list.

I was looking at why God seems to change his mind sometimes. If he knows the results of how He has set things up to be, then why is He surprised that He has to send a flood to correct things, and why does He need to send Jesus the change the Law.

The Law was changed in many ways by early Christians. They could eat pork and shellfish. They didn't get circumcised. They didn't stone anybody for sex crimes. Etc.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Science says man can't understand particles. So the answer is that God can't understand those particles either.….

No and no. It just doesn't.


jonb wrote:
Quote:
Science says man can't understand particles.


Where does it say that ?? What does that even mean ? I'm pretty sure you didn't read that in an actual science book.


jonb wrote:
Quote:
Why, science! You know, the source that says there are things we can't understand.


Where does science say that ?? Of course there are topics and things that we as a species do not yet understand, but the advantage of science is that with applied effort we may indeed one day understand something more fully. As a system it has done quite well in advancing our knowledge of the universe around us.


I was working from the starting point of the OP. I took his premise and drew it out from there. It was more of an "Even if you were right about what you are wrong about, your premise is still pretty imbecilic."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve1501 wrote:


As I too consider Christianity to be inherently logically inconsistent, albeit not necessarily for quite the same reasons, I will have to defer to actual Christians to let them attempt to counter your point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Isn't this a core theme of the Foundation series? Except that it posits a future where humans will have the processing power to divine future interactions of variables and their states at certain instances of time. Is there a practical difference between the "magical" definition of all-knowing and the "rational" definition of a being with the built in processing power to reason out these future states? They seem functionally equivalent. Nothing changes except that one sounds better to logical, reasoning people. The sheer power of the entity that could do either is beyond current human understanding.

To me this sounds more like an attempt to convince atheists that an all-knowing god is possible than an attempt to redefine "all-knowing" to give believers a reasoned talking point. Many believers don't care how their God's abilities work, just that they exist.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
Isn't this a core theme of the Foundation series? Except that it posits a future where humans will have the processing power to divine future interactions of variables and their states at certain instances of time. Is there a practical difference between the "magical" definition of all-knowing and the "rational" definition of a being with the built in processing power to reason out these future states? They seem functionally equivalent. Nothing changes except that one sounds better to logical, reasoning people. The sheer power of the entity that could do either is beyond current human understanding.

To me this sounds more like an attempt to convince atheists that an all-knowing god is possible than an attempt to redefine "all-knowing" to give believers a reasoned talking point. Many believers don't care how their God's abilities work, just that they exist.


Psychohistory was based in probabilities, but God's knowledge is 100%. There's no 'might happen' or 'distant possibility' to God, he knows which psychohistorical outcome is going to happen. But he also knows that down to the person, day, etc, whereas psychohistory dealt with long amounts of time and masses of people.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.