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Kenneth Lury
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I have read section 4.5 multiple times, but still cannot get my head around the combat consequences for transports except that if the armor rating has a white circle and the unit takes a step loss, it is tracked on the transport pool track rather than actually losing a step from the specific unit.

Beyond this, I have no idea what should happen. I you could explain it step by step (or tell me where similar info is in case someone already asked the question) I would greatly appreciate it.

Lots to get my head around, but certainly very satisfying, challenging and entertaining.
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Cole Dano
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I'll speak to that to the best of my ability. It is a bit tricky to wrap one's head around for some reason, but actually pretty simple.

Let's look at the attached transport case which, at least for me is pretty much all I've ever used.

The idea is that there are plenty of transport in reserve, so the attached transport never get truly knocked out, but when hit the passengers are offloaded. I visualise this as the transport comes under fire, and every one onboard jumps for cover. The vehicles get shot up and are knocked out of service.

For the rest of the phase the unit is unloaded, waiting on more transport to show up.

The lost transports are kept track of on the transport pool track for victory points.

Now what happened to the unit that dove for cover? The survivor table roll tells the tale.

For non-attached transport everything is the same except the transport unit itself takes a step loss rather than being marked on the transport pool track.

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Mark Mokszycki
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Sure thing, Kenneth. I'm not sure which part in particular is giving you trouble, so I'll try to do a broad overview. Hopefully this will help...

Transports are just normal vehicles. They aren't special in any way apart from their ability to load or tow units. All vehicles (transports included) are either AFVs (Armored Fighting Vehicles) or they are unarmored. What happens to a transport during Combat depends on whether or not it is an AFV.

AFVs have some special abilities, as summarized in 12.1 AFVs. Among these are their ability to ignore eZOC and ignore any losses mandated by the CRT. This applies to any transport with an Armor rating of 1 or more.

If the transports are unarmored (i.e., have an Armor rating of 0) then they are treated exactly the same as infantry and other non-AFV units with respect to how they take losses. That is, any losses mandated by the CRT, and any step reductions mandated by Ranged Attacks, apply to them normally.

You are correct that units with a circled Armor rating track their losses on the Transport Pool rather than take a step reduction to the specified unit, but this specifically has to do with step reductions from AT Fire. This is summarized under 12.6 Units with Circles Armor Ratings.

Units that are in the process of being transported have an opportunity to voluntarily unload during Assaults. This is covered in 8.1 Conducting Combat. See steps #3 ("The phasing player may deploy loaded (but not towed) units") and #6 ("The non-phasing player may deploy loaded (but not towed) units"). This part is admittedly very procedural, but I think that if you stick rigidly to the order of events in 8.1 it will steer you right -- at least until you've done enough Assaults to commit the order to memory.

If this doesn't answer your specific questions, feel free to continue asking. It might help if you give me an example of a specific Assault, including what units are involved on each side and which are being transported. I'll try to monitor this thread closely until we get you all squared away.

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Mark Mokszycki
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Cole's explanation is excellent. It does a great job of explaining the "real world" rationale behind the rules for transports in combat and the Survival Table.
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Kenneth Lury
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what happens to a non independent transport (one towing something)
My perception is that it gets turned over to the towed unit . Beyond that I am lost.
 
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Cole Dano
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Right it gets flipped back to it's unloaded side (passengers dive for cover, vehicles are are shot up and out of commission), to track the lost vehicles you move the counter on the Vehicle Pool Track.

The Vehicle Pool Counter itself starts on it's un-depleted side. The scenario notes will tell you where to place the counter initially. Once you've moved the counter down to zero, it's flipped and now begins to move up the counter. The scenario description will say how many VPs each step on the track is worth.

The the remainder of that phase the now unloaded (flipped) unit is on foot. But the following phase it may use vehicle transport again, replacement trucks have been sent in. In other words everything is exactly as it was, only you've lost some VPs.
 
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Mark Mokszycki
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Quote:
what happens to a non independent transport (one towing something)
My perception is that it gets turned over to the towed unit . Beyond that I am lost.

There are too many variables for me to give you a "one size fits all" answer. That's why I was hoping for a specific game situation. Is the transporting unit armored? Is this a Combat or an Assault? Are the opposing units using AT Fire? Is the transported unit on the attacking or defending side?

Let's look at a specific game situation...

A lone 6-pounder AT gun unit in its Towed state is overrun by a stack of two German panzer platoons. This is an Assault and there are vehicles and AT-capable units opposing one another, so we use the Tactical Advantage chit draw. The chit draw yields an "AA" chit so the German attackers get to perform AT Fire first (and second).

The first panzer platoon makes an AT Fire attack against the Loyd carriers (the vehicles which are towing the 6-pdrs and which are treated as any other vehicle). The dice roll (2d10) yields a modified 14+ for a step reduction. Since the unit has a circled Armor rating, the British Transport Pool is reduced by one.

Now the British player must roll on the Survival Table to see if his 6-pdrs (the weapons and their teams) survived the loss of their transports. He rolls 1d6 and any result of a 3 or lower will result in a step reduction to the 6-pdrs, destroying them because they are single-step units. A roll of 4 or higher means they survived and nothing happens to them (but the Transport Pool remains reduced by 1, yielding VPs to the German player at the end of the game).

The 6-pdrs are flipped to their deployed side per 4.55 Transports and Losses. The second "A" of the "AA" chit is ignored because there are no longer any vehicle units for the attacker to use AT Fire against. (But if the first panzer had failed to roll a modified 14+ for a step reduction, the second panzer unit could now make an AT Fire attack against the same Loyd carriers.) Then the Assault would be over.

Feel free to provide me with other situations if that one didn't address your problem.
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Mark Mokszycki
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Note that towed units cannot normally deploy during Assaults. From 4.5.4 Transports and Combat:

"Towed units and loaded non-infantry units cannot deploy during Assaults."

Also from that rules section:

"Transported units, whether loaded or towed, may (owning player’s choice) immediately deploy when they are the target of a Ranged Attack or AT Fire (Exception: Towed units cannot deploy during an Assault) but only after resolving the effects of that fire."

In my example above, the towed 6-pounders were forced to deploy during an Assault because their transports were destroyed. This is in accordance with 4.5.5 Transports and Losses which states,

"When a transport that is actively transporting a unit suffers a step reduction, the following occur:

• The unit is immediately unloaded (or the counter is flipped to
its Deployed side, in the case of an attached transport)."
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Kenneth Lury
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There
Let's look at a specific game situation...

A lone 6-pounder AT gun unit in its Towed state is overrun by a stack of two German panzer platoons. This is an Assault and there are vehicles and AT-capable units opposing one another, so we use the Tactical Advantage chit draw. The chit draw yields an "AA" chit so the German attackers get to perform AT Fire first (and second).

The first panzer platoon makes an AT Fire attack against the Loyd carriers (the vehicles which are towing the 6-pdrs and which are treated as any other vehicle). The dice roll (2d10) yields a modified 14+ for a step reduction. Since the unit has a circled Armor rating, the British Transport Pool is reduced by one.

Now the British player must roll on the Survival Table to see if his 6-pdrs (the weapons and their teams) survived the loss of their transports. He rolls 1d6 and any result of a 3 or lower will result in a step reduction to the 6-pdrs, destroying them because they are single-step units. A roll of 4 or higher means they survived and nothing happens to them (but the Transport Pool remains reduced by 1, yielding VPs to the German player at the end of the game).

The 6-pdrs are flipped to their deployed side per 4.55 Transports and Losses. The second "A" of the "AA" chit is ignored because there are no longer any vehicle units for the attacker to use AT Fire against. (But if the first panzer had failed roll a modified 14+ for a step reduction, the second panzer unit could now make an AT Fire attack against the same Loyd carriers.) Then the Assault would be over your problem.

This is helpful. Thanks
 
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Kenneth Lury
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What might help a lot is a diagram showing complete series of events in an assault beginning with the tactical advantage step,moving next to possible ARC WITHIN THE TANK BATTLe then to finishing the assault. Also if there is any FF before the assault that triggers ARC.
I MIGHT TRY THIS MYSELF AND UPLOAD FOR ANY CORRECTIONS, ADDITIONS,ETC

Sorry for the caps. Using my iPad is a pain
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Mark Mokszycki
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I think there are too many variables and choices for a tree diagram to work. I tried it at one point long ago and gave up on the idea. But feel free to try it if you like. I think you'd need multiple trees to cover multiple situations--like the one I made (included as a card in the published game) just to cover the ARC.

Following the Combat Sequence should steer you right. Keep in mind that ARC is not allowed during an Assault or in response to a Combat. However, it is allowed at the conclusion of the Combat/Assault when the attacker moves into the vacated hex or when the defenders move out. (Both cases act as movement triggers.)

I suspect it's just a matter of learning the Combat Sequence and learning when the ARC can or can't be used. When the two fit together in your mind, it will all click.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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Mark- you are extremely helpful. Part of my confusion was how the ARC fit into assaults and combat. Now that worry is out of the way.
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Mark Mokszycki
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Glad I could help, Kenneth.

In Combats, the other place that the ARC is allowed is before the actual CRT resolution of the Combat, when Support is being resolved.

Let's say that your opponent commits an armored car troop to defensive support of the Combat. The cars make a Ranged Attack from two hexes away vs. your units that are contributing CS to the Combat (as the attackers).

At this point--if you choose--you could declare Return Fire from one of your units--say, a tank platoon--that has not already been declared as part of the Combat (either directly contributing CS to the Combat or as offensive support).

Just remember that if you already declared a unit as Support, it can't participate in the ARC at this particular point in the turn. It could potentially do so later in the turn, after the resolution of the Combat. The same goes for your opponent's units.

Since there is no Support during an Assault, this is a non-issue for Assaults. All ARC in an Assault comes either before (while the attacker is moving up) or after (during Advance After Combat or Retreat) the Assault.

The other time the ARC can be used in a Combat is, of course, at the end... during the Advance After Combat or Retreat.

Long-winded, but hopefully this helps.
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Bryan Felsher
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Regarding Carrier Platoons: My understanding is that only step reductions from AT fire are tracked by the transport pool, followed by a Survival table roll. So a step reduction result to a CP by a ranged attack or a combat, you just flip the counter and ignore the transport pool?

Thanks for the amazing support Mark.

I'm really enjoying learning this game. I'm sure it will all click eventually. I'm on tutorial 5 and I think this is the one that separates the men from the boys!
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Kenneth Lury
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Mark
Your support is amazing and extremely helpful
Thanks
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Bryan Felsher
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I think it just clicked for me regarding CP's and SP's. When they are driving around loaded and someone shoots AT at them, they act like a transport AFV and track losses on the transport pool plus survival table because the boys jumped the heck off the transport quick but both transport and infantry may have gotten hurt. But when you fire ranged at their hex (including supporting ranged fire), they jumped off the truck but may not have found cover in time or they had to hide behind the truck and get suppressed and maybe a step loss. Movement stops. When they are involved in combat, they were dismounted and take a normal step loss or retreat as an infantry unit. The truck isn't targeted in the combat so no transport pool loss. At least this helps me remember the rules...if I have it right...seems logical to me.
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Mark Mokszycki
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Quote:
Regarding Carrier Platoons: My understanding is that only step reductions from AT fire are tracked by the transport pool, followed by a Survival table roll. So a step reduction result to a CP by a ranged attack or a combat, you just flip the counter and ignore the transport pool?


That's exactly right, Bryan.

They are treated as infantry in most game situations and take step reductions from Combats, Assaults, and Ranged Attacks as if infantry. But note that their carriers grant them a bit of protection against Ranged Attacks (a -1 DRM to their opponent's die roll). The biggest difference between them and "normal" infantry is that they ignore eZOC because they are also treated as AFVs (yellow-boxed MA = tracked vehicle, Armor rating >0 = armored).

When attacked by AT Fire, they are treated as vehicles. Because they have a circled Armor rating, they track step reductions from AT Fire on the Transport Pool rather than flipping the counter to its reduced side. However, if they fail their check on the Survival Table, they do actually flip to their reduced side (in addition to what was tracked via the Transport Pool).
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Mark Mokszycki
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Quote:
Movement stops.


This might be the only point where you're still confused, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Let's consider the two main game possibilities: AT Fire and Ranged Attack. But first, bear with me for a minute...

While it helps to visualize the infantry component of the Carrier Platoon / Scout Platoon unloading when they take fire, they don't actually unload in game terms. They are depicted as both infantry + vehicles on both sides of the counter, meaning that they have two strength steps. This is different from the other units in the game which typically have the deployed weapon team on the front and the attached transport vehicle on the back (representing the unit in its loaded or towed state).

1. AT Fire. Because the Carrier Platoons / Scout Platoons do not technically unload, they don't have to stop moving when they take a step reduction from AT Fire. They can keep moving if they choose to do so, just like a tank unit. (The wisdom in doing this is a different matter entirely!!)

These units are not transports as described in 4.5 Transports. They are a weird amalgam of infantry and armor that are sometimes treated as infantry and sometimes treated as AFVs. They are never treated as transports. However, they track AT Fire losses using the Transport Pool per 12.6 (which is probably what's making this confusing for you).

2. Ranged Attack. If the Carrier Platoon / Scout Platoon came under fire from a Ranged Attack while moving then the fire is, by definition, Friction Fire. It is only possible if the movement was into or out of a field hex. The possible outcomes from Friction Fire are either "No Effect" or "(#)". The number in parentheses means the moving unit has to either halt, ending its move, or suffer the number of step losses shown by the number and continue moving. So, in the case of Friction Fire, the Platoon is treated just like a normal (unloaded) infantry unit.

Note that neither case -- AT Fire or Friction Fire -- requires the moving Platoon to stop moving when it comes under fire and/or takes a step reduction.

Hope that helps!
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Cole Dano
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Thanks for that clarification, I've had a hard time with that myself.
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Bryan Felsher
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Thanks Mark! Makes perfect sense now. They don't unload (doh!), so they don't have to stop moving from an AT hit (though I probably would unless I could suppress the unit that fired on them!).

Friction fire works just like FF against infantry in that they have to stop moving or pay step losses to keep going...and I think I'd only do that in rare instances where I absolutely needed to take that chance.
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Mark Mokszycki
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Sounds like you've got it, Bryan.

Quote:
They don't unload (doh!), so they don't have to stop moving from an AT hit (though I probably would unless I could suppress the unit that fired on them!).


Yep. The other situation that comes to mind is if they're trying to reach cover and the unit shooting at them has only a marginal chance of doing a step reduction. For example, an enemy armored car unit with an AT rating of 4 shooting from 4 hexes away. DRMs would be +3 Penetration and -4 Range, for a net -1. That means your opponent would need to roll a 15 or higher on 2d10 do do a step reduction. In this case, I'd probably continue moving my Carrier Platoon if there was close terrain nearby.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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Finally had a chance to play some more. The British off map artillery fire was devastating !(unless I played it wrong) Even using 1/2 strength for increased distance, I had lots of great dice rolls and had 3 suppressed markers on each of two German hexes. This is in the first non training scenario. And I did remember ,after the second turn that the off map artillery cannot be used in the action phase.

Just so I am clear: If the result from the ranged fire included a step reduction, the counter (if on the vehicle side) gets flipped and roll on the survival table.
If the counter is on the weapon side, take a step reduction which will I guess in most cases eliminate the unit.

Another question. If an assault includes AFV, after they do their AT routine, does their CS contribute to the attack ? I think it does, but not sure.

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Bryan Felsher
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Hey Keith. As far as I understand and play it, yes to both your questions. The only exception I can think of is scenario T8 as the special rules explicitly state that the MG's must remain deployed.

 
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Mark Mokszycki
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Sorry that I missed your questions until just now.

Quote:
Finally had a chance to play some more. The British off map artillery fire was devastating !(unless I played it wrong) Even using 1/2 strength for increased distance,

Keep in mind that the halving of Ranged Attack Strength (RAS) only applies to direct fire attacks (from MGs and the like) at ranges greater than 3 hexes. Artillery are never affected by this penalty because they use indirect fire (as denoted by the yellow box around their RAS).

Quote:
And I did remember ,after the second turn that the off map artillery cannot be used in the action phase.

Good memory! Think of the British Assets as large, corps-level assets that have to be specifically requested and carefully coordinated with the infantry battalion's own forward observer (actually a Royal Artillery man who lives with the infantry). That's the rationale for why these units can't be fired "off the cuff."

Quote:
Just so I am clear: If the result from the ranged fire included a step reduction, the counter (if on the vehicle side) gets flipped and roll on the survival table.

Correct, except that AFVs don't normally take step reductions from Ranged Attacks. The Carrier Platoons and Scout Platoons are an exception to this because they are (also) treated as infantry.

Quote:
If the counter is on the weapon side, take a step reduction which will I guess in most cases eliminate the unit.

That's correct.
Quote:

Another question. If an assault includes AFV, after they do their AT routine, does their CS contribute to the attack ? I think it does, but not sure.

Yes, the CS of any AFVs involved in the Assault still contributes to the attacker's or defender's total CS. Keep in mind, though, that most AFVs have their CS halved when attacking into (but not defending in) close terrain. These units have a red-boxed CS.

I hope you're having fun with the game! Let me know if you have any more questions.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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Quote:
Finally had a chance to play some more. The British off map artillery fire was devastating !(unless I played it wrong) Even using 1/2 strength for increased distance,
Keep in mind that the halving of Ranged Attack Strength (RAS) only applies to direct fire attacks (from MGs and the like) at ranges greater than 3 hexes. Artillery are never affected by this penalty because they use indirect fire (as denoted by the yellow box around their RAS).


Thanks for this - did not realize. Again, even halving their strength I had a great run of high rolls


Quote:
Just so I am clear: If the result from the ranged fire included a step reduction, the counter (if on the vehicle side) gets flipped and roll on the survival table.
Correct, except that AFVs don't normally take step reductions from Ranged Attacks. The Carrier Platoons and Scout Platoons are an exception to this because they are (also) treated as infantry.


Here I am talking about vehicles that are towing a weapon/weapon team- does this fall into the CP/SP category or treated like AFV's ?



Finally used the quotes correctly !!!!!!


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