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Subject: How about a max dice limit for sin player? rss

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David Miller
United States
Livonia
Michigan
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Often times games of the others can come to a piling of guys in one location for the sins player, and often that results in so many dice that the heroes just cant overcome it. This is coming from my 2 plays of the game and numerous plays from others (not the game but other players).

Anyways I was thinking about trying out a max dice limit for the sins player. The sins player could still pile up, but would get a max limit on dice. Or it could force them to spread out a bit more. Piling up would still have some benefit for the sins player as casualties are dealt to the sins player they could still have remaining units in the area.

I'm sure the game was probably designed knowing about the pile up, but it seems to be an issue for my group as well as others.

What do you think?
What would be a good number of max dice?
 
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brian giese
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I have played the game 3 times now as the sins player. The stacking monsters is both an effective strat, and the only way to keep them safe from ranged players that can easily kill 1 or 2 acolytes or abominations.

I've been reading some people say its a valid strategy, and only "newbie" players can't overcome it, but having some sort of Dice limit might be a good thing.


I often stack the main sin, 7 dice, the controller, 4 dice, and often a monsters from apoc deck in the same room. 4 to 5 dice. If I'm able I'll try to get some other monsters in there as well, but they are weak to the laser or variety of abilities.


When i'm rolling 16+ dice vs the sometimes 8 to 10 dice (on a great turn) against the players, it is very easy to bring them down fast.


I need to play the game a couple more times with players who try different strats against the stack room method, but i don't see a better way to play the Monsters in most scenarios, but I need more time to see how more games go.
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Mark Thompson
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No to the max number of dice. 16 dice vs. 8 dice... sure it sounds bad... but when they can fairly easily come in with 8 dice and 3 guaranteed successes due to corruption.... sure you might kill that character... but man are they going to do a number on your forces and if you stacked thinking i just need to keep the avatar alive... man are you in trouble.

The game is very tactical and has a lot of strategy on creature placement. It's like a chess match. As the sins player... holing up is an effective early strategy... kinda like the 4-5 move checkmate in chess... players learn quickly how to defend that trap and move on to more advanced plays.

This is the same with this game... hole up as the sins player... the FAITH will figure this out in 2-3 plays... then you better have a new strategy because if you haven't thought 2-3 moves ahead you are going to be in big trouble once they figure out your gimmick strategy.
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Jason Peacock
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Big time no on the Max Dice Limit. The Sins player being able to get two-three monsters rolling dice in an attack is one of Sins weapons. The Faith Team has to be careful of this plain and simple. It's part of the beautiful balance of this game, part of the tension.
I played a game with my Brother and our Son's and I was the Sins player. I came out of the gate hard and killed 3 Heroes by the end of the second turn. The Faith stratagized well against me and ended up winning that game; they killed my Avatar before I was able to drop their last hero.
Don't underestimate the shooters. Give those guys an upgrade card that add dice and take some corruption and they can wipe the board clean with some good tactics.

Regards,
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David Miller
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I understand a no on dice limit, but the couple groups I've played this with. At least 1 player from each group didn't like the game because of the piling up strategy. I'm afraid someone in every new group I play this with will dislike the game because of this and call it a "cheap strategy". It's not an issue for repeat players but new players it is. As far as a dice limit I was thinking a limit of 14 dice. That's an avatar, a controller, and a abomination.

I've played on both sides. One instance the sin player blocked the heroes from even moving out of an area because the only exit was metro. Every time a hero tried to take the metro out into the massive pile up (the sins player was able to roll 18 dice, they were able to move into the blockage and around it, because the heroes were in a spot they couldn't get out of) they were killed if a fight was triggered. It was a fault on the heroes play to get locked down but there wasn't even a close way out. You couldn't get more than one hero in the room to even add dice or use a potential ability that would help. Moving through wouldn't help much because it was an auto wound in that space moving out of. Not too mention the fire in the room and surrounding. The problem is 1 mistake cost the heroes the game.

Personally I don't mind the strategy of piling up but I'm fearful of its turn off effect for new players.

I love the chess like strategy of the game where a couple mistakes could cost you the game.

I think maybe as a sin player I may just mention the pile up strategy to new players.
 
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Atul Deshpande
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Wisconsin
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warpi9 wrote:

I've played on both sides. One instance the sin player blocked the heroes from even moving out of an area because the only exit was metro. Every time a hero tried to take the metro out into the massive pile up (the sins player was able to roll 18 dice, they were able to move into the blockage and around it, because the heroes were in a spot they couldn't get out of) they were killed if a fight was triggered. It was a fault on the heroes play to get locked down but there wasn't even a close way out. You couldn't get more than one hero in the room to even add dice or use a potential ability that would help. Moving through wouldn't help much because it was an auto wound in that space moving out of. Not too mention the fire in the room and surrounding. The problem is 1 mistake cost the heroes the game.


I think there's something off about your interpretation about the rules. The heroes do not get pinned down by monsters. Heroes are always free to move out of a space with monsters as long as they take a sum total of one wound, irrespective of the number of monsters in the space. In that sense, the stockpiling is advantageous to the heroes because they can move around freely on the rest of the map.
 
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Mark VonKing
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Stockpiling is weak strategy. If you have to kill the avatar in a pile of monsters you may die but the avatar still can be killed. No on max dice.
 
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Brian M
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I don't know if a dice limit is the right approach, but the monster pile does seem like a very big problem to me. It doesn't take much of a pile to be really, really hard for the heroes to attack, and it takes very little effort on the part of the Sin player to set up such a pile.

Quote:
As the sins player... holing up is an effective early strategy... kinda like the 4-5 move checkmate in chess... players learn quickly how to defend that trap and move on to more advanced plays.

And how do they "defend" against that trap? The Sin has a few monsters on a spot that your mission requires you to get to. Move in a hero and its probably death with little damage done in return. The Sin player can likely set up this deathtrap turn 1, so there's not much you can do to stop it from happening. What's your plan for defeating the horde?

Quote:
Don't underestimate the shooters. Give those guys an upgrade card that add dice and take some corruption and they can wipe the board clean with some good tactics.

A pile of monsters will likely be in a district, and thus you can't ranged attack into it.
 
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Creed Buhallin
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Admittedly only one game in, but I haven't yet seen a need for a limit yet. Players can move through such mobs with relatively little impact, and there are any number of hero tactics that can deal with the mob directly (if fatally for the hero involved).

One of the things I think is going to be weird for players in this game is the idea that losing heroes is often good tactics. You've got replacements, and between suicidal heroes and Orbital Strikes you can thin them out faster than the Sins can replenish.

Remember to play the activation game, too - the Sins player can only react after a player goes, and can only start a fight with that player. If he holds all his tokens for the end you can easily strand him with unused reactions, and if he burns them early you can get some free actions to get in, get what you need, and get out without him reacting.

To the main effect you mention: If you've got players who are going to give up on the game because of one tactic/ability, without even trying to figure out how to deal with it, there's little you can do about them. If it wasn't stacking, it'd be Sin cards or Apocalypse effects. If you're teaching, best you can do is point out the options and hope for the best.
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Justin M
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warpi9 wrote:
I understand a no on dice limit, but the couple groups I've played this with. At least 1 player from each group didn't like the game because of the piling up strategy. I'm afraid someone in every new group I play this with will dislike the game because of this and call it a "cheap strategy". It's not an issue for repeat players but new players it is. As far as a dice limit I was thinking a limit of 14 dice. That's an avatar, a controller, and a abomination.

I've played on both sides. One instance the sin player blocked the heroes from even moving out of an area because the only exit was metro. Every time a hero tried to take the metro out into the massive pile up (the sins player was able to roll 18 dice, they were able to move into the blockage and around it, because the heroes were in a spot they couldn't get out of) they were killed if a fight was triggered. It was a fault on the heroes play to get locked down but there wasn't even a close way out. You couldn't get more than one hero in the room to even add dice or use a potential ability that would help. Moving through wouldn't help much because it was an auto wound in that space moving out of. Not too mention the fire in the room and surrounding. The problem is 1 mistake cost the heroes the game.

Personally I don't mind the strategy of piling up but I'm fearful of its turn off effect for new players.

I love the chess like strategy of the game where a couple mistakes could cost you the game.

I think maybe as a sin player I may just mention the pile up strategy to new players.


you can just run past them and take the 1 wound if they are blocking, and since they can only ever move 1 monster per reaction you should be fine. Because like most people here have said, the stock-piling strategy is definitely effective against newer player(a la 4 move checkmate)howvever when you see that against newer players remember that they can walk past the monsters and only ever take 1 wound no matter how many mosnters are there. and an effective strategy to coutner it is going around getting equipment, and getting some corruption and going in with almost max corruption and specifically targetting the mosnters you need to kill.
 
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Mark Blasco

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Well, here's an easy solution: Tell players about it before you play. Let everyone know that sometimes the sin player will build up a massive collection of monsters. Remind everyone that if heroes are in the street, the monsters get stuck in those spaces, and that if the heroes also have shooters in line of site, they can snipe off those monsters which are stuck outside the building. Also, remind them about the orbital laser, which can be used to help thin out the herd of monsters.

There are solutions to the dogpile problem. If experienced players do well against it, than just give new players the info they need to counter it from the start.

I'm planning to print out a little strategy guide for new players, just a half page or so of tips taken from these forums, so that when we play, I don't have to worry about the heroes losing because they didn't understand the mechanics and how to counter certain things. If the owner of the game is going to be the sin player, and he/she has the most experience, than the other players should get some pointers and advice before they start, to help even things out a bit.
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Brian M
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Quote:
Players can move through such mobs with relatively little impact

I don't see how this is relevant; the "pile of monsters" is going to be used in a spot the heroes MUST go to complete their objectives. Moving through it won't help.

Quote:
and there are any number of hero tactics that can deal with the mob directly (if fatally for the hero involved).

A hero with maxed corruption is likely getting 3 auto hits. A strong combat hero will likely roll base 4 dice + 2 dice from the corruption. That's likely about 6 hits total. Killing two abominations is good progress, but it doesn't exactly clear a full nest! And it may take a round of waiting to build up that much corruption, which gives the Sin player a chance to play a Hate card on the swarm and make it even nastier.
 
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Geoff ...
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StormKnight wrote:
A hero with maxed corruption is likely getting 3 auto hits.

A hero at max corruption gets 4 auto-hits (by choosing auto-hit as the final upgrade), as well as plenty of dice assuming you have some gear. My monsters (avatar or otherwise) never stand a chance against a suicidal hero .
 
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Brian M
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Geoff wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
A hero with maxed corruption is likely getting 3 auto hits.

A hero at max corruption gets 4 auto-hits (by choosing auto-hit as the final upgrade), as well as plenty of dice assuming you have some gear. My monsters (avatar or otherwise) never stand a chance against a suicidal hero .

Ah, I did forget about the 1 "wild face" on the end. But I wouldn't assume you'd have much gear by that point, not without letting the Sins player get several Apocalypse cards, and taking a few wounds so you can't benefit from all your corruption. And of course they'll be hitting you with Hobos or something to cancel some of your gear.

I'll give it a try, but last time we had the "horde" issue we just couldn't make a dent. A hero would die and they'd just get stronger.
 
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